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quillity had become requisite. The noble lord had alluded to the existing system of coinage, and seemed to think it capable of some amendment. There were two principles upon which the views of the noble lord night be carried into effect. To the first, that of a seignorage, heren tertained a decided objection. That of a brassage seemed to point out a system one tirely new, and would require much cons sideration."

12 10 920

The Earl of Darnley expressed his cons

effected in the public expenditure. With this impression on his mind, he should feel it his duty to call their lordships attention to the subject during the present session.

The Duke of Wellington stated, that if the whole of the ordnance department were abolished, the salaries and half-pay must remain, and the amount of the red duction would not exceed one-third of the present expenditure. 5082 200 sin0956 The Bill was then read a third time bal 1 dett nemnd

stances might easily arise which would duty. It was obvious, however, in the demand at once the additional expendi-altered circumstances of the country, that ture of two or three millions. Such a ne-a much more considerable force than was cessity might be brought about by unfa-maintained at preceding periods of tran vourable seasons, or by an unavoidable increase of our military force. Without some resource of this kind, therefore, a nation did not give itself elbow-room, nor prepare for any of those exigencies which were of perpetual recurrence. Upon these grounds he had come to the conclusion that it was desirable that a sinking fund ́of 5,000,000l. should be established. He now came to notice those ideas which had been suggested in some quarters, as to the means of obtaining relief by reducing the interest of the public debt.viction that great retrenchments might be Such an act would, in his opinion, be the most disgraceful that any legislature could commit; and it would be a waste of words to expose its monstrous injustice. By another plan it was proposed to introduce a slight depreciation in the value of the currency; but this was precisely the same thing, done in a still more objectionable mode. Much had been said of the possibility of reducing our establishments; and their lordships knew, by the votes of the other House, that inquiry had been made into the several branches of our expenditure. Some considerable retrenchments had been made; but it was of importance that their lordships should know how this matter really stood. The great burthen at present was the half-pay of the army, the navy, and the ordnance. The charge alone of the army and ordnance in this respeet amounted to 5,000,000l., or what formerly was sufficient for defraying the whole expenses of our civil establishment. Now, this was a source of expenditure that must continue to flow on; it was a subject which they could not touch. It now cost more to support the same number of men than it did formerly. It had been, therefore, found necessary to raise their pay; and perhaps the increase had been too large; but he must be a bold man who would now propose to reduce it to its former amount. Of such items, however, the mass of our expenditure was made up; and unless they could be deducted from the account, he did not see where any effectual retrenchment was to take place. He knew it was said, that our military establishments were too large for a time of peace. To this he could only answer, that ministers were disposed to bring them within as narrow limits as was consistent with their

HOUSE OF COMMONS.da 1 551 bluoW Friday, May 4 basood

DUTY ON EAST INDIA SUGARS.] Lord Stanley presented a Petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, against any additional Duty on East India Sugar, for the protection of the West In dia grower.

Cor. od tedi borsbпow

The Chancellor of the Exchequer vindis cated the policy of laying a higher duty on East India sugars than on those made in the West Indies... 586 od of ti brit

Mr. Ricardo objected altogether to the principle of this tax, which recognised the policy of giving the produce of one coun try a preference to that of another.ots

For his part lig

Mr. Bennet wished to know why the English consumer should be obliged to pay more for sugar from the West than from the East Indies. was not inclined to give such a preference to any class of men, much less to people who had vested their capital in dealing on human flesh.ne The interest of the code sumer, as well as that of the trader, was a point which the House ought neversto lose sight of. He would stand up for the people of this country, vagainst the West India truder on grower, or whatever she

might be called, as well as against the English land-owner, when he required an unjust protection on the ship-owner, as in the case of the timber duties, or any other class of men who wished to make the legislature the instrument of increase ing their profits at the expense of the interests of the people at large.

Mr. Gordon said, that notwithstanding his hon. friend's lecture on political economy, it was impossible for the West Indian trade to go on, unless by the aid of such a protecting duty. He thought his hom friend might have spared himself the use of such expressions as he had applied toothe West Indian colonists, when he called them dealers in human flesh; such expressions being both uncalled for, and unjust.

-Mr. Barham said, the West India interest desired no advantage; but as burthens twenty times greater than had been imposed on any other body had fallen on them, they were justified in calling for some relief to enable them to exist. His hon. friend had thought it right to speak of all persons who had by any circumstance become possessed of property in the West Indies, as having vested their capital in human flesh. He thought his hon. friend, when be reflected on what he had said, would feel how unfair his conduct had been, and was confident that his own reproaclies would be more severe than any which che could bring himself to pronouncėamhĹlo

instances where the cruelty of the prin ciple was mitigated in the practice; but upon its general merits, he must always maintain the slave trade to be founded on a principle that could not be reconciled to humanity.

Mr. Gordon wished his hon. friend would abstain from speaking on a subject which he did not understand.

Sir R. Wilson had no hesitation in declaring his belief, that the system of slavery in the West Indies was of the most cruel and atrocious nature.

Dr. Lushington observed, that where slavery was tolerated it was impossible that the principles of humanity should not be violated. Against individuals connected with the West India trade his hon. friend had thrown out no charge, but against the slave system, which must ever be productive of human misery.co Ördered to lie on the table.

STATE OF THE NATION, AS CONNECT, ED WITH THE EVENTS NOW PASSING IN EUROPE.] On the order of the day, for going into a Committee of Supply,

d

Mr. Hutchinson rose to submit the mo tion of which he had given notice. He began by observing, that it was not his intention on the present occasion to interfere in any degree with the subject on which a noble lord (W. Bentinck) had given a notice. If he thought that his motion would anticipate, or at all interfere with that of the noble lord, he certainly would not press ailMrBernal, with all the respect which it. In entering upon so vast and importe he had for the humanity of his hon. friend, ant a subject, he was conscious of his own wondered that he should allow the heat inadequacy to the task. He would, how of the moment to delude his understand- ever, open his view of it to the House, con ing If this hon. friend inquired into the fident that it would be ably enlarged upon system of slave management, he would by those honourable members who should find it to be one of humanity. He must support him. Looking at the present knows that the language he had used situation of Europe, he could not but feel would go abroad, and operate to the pre- considerable apprehension, as well at the judice of the West India traders; and nature of the events which were passing, therefore be trusted he would retract the as at the conduct of the British govern asperity of the expression which he had ment with respect to them. When the applied to themtuoda consents and,m situation of Italy was brought before par A&Mr. Bennet said, he was called on to liament in February last his majesty's minisgive up his opinion, and to state, that, ters declared that it was not their intention to generally speaking, the slave-trade was interfere with respect to Naples. The one of humanity. He believed it to be document which was at that time laid be no such thing.As an individual capable fore, and made the subject of discussion of forming an opinion upon the principle in, the other House, declared that the initself, he could see nothing so humane intentions of our government were those of inas to lessen the feeling which he had expressed towards it. He certainly did not thean to apply the expressions to any odc about himo No doubt there were

strict neutrality; but nevertheless, they were not backward in showing what their feelings were, and how far those feel ings, were against the cause of othe

/Neapolitans. It was then contended, that time greatness of this country, if they bthe objects of the Austrianss was not ag- now suffered the allies to occupy a mili2 grandisement, but the security of their tary position, from which all the force of -Italian 7 possessions. It was then thought the empire would be insufficient tos dis by many, thats the Neapolitans and the lodge them at a future period. There other Italian states would have had suffi was no danger that justified their present cient forces to repel the aggressions of movements; but tyrants and despots wishAustria; and glad he would have been if ed all subjects to be slaves, and would put the whole of the force sent by the tyran- down liberty on any pretence whatever. nical government of Austria had been In Italy they would put it down omac destroyed. But what had happened? count of the Carbonari in Spain they Naples was now completely under the would put it down on account of its being Austrian yoke; the kingdom of Sardinia desired by what they could not respect, was likewise in her possession; but not- the population of a country and they withstanding this, we found that an im- would find some excuse for putting it mense body of Russians were rushing down in England, if they could approach from their woods to give assistance to our shores in safety. It was not new to Austria, which he sincerely regretted that call on England to come forward when Austria did not need. Thus we saw that other powers had taken strong and threatAustria was in full possession of Italy, ening positions. In such cases it bad long the Russians advancing in great force to been the policy of this country to sinter support that power, while she was prepar- fere, and therefore it would not satisfy ing to govern her newly-acquired possses him to be told, that whatever Russia and sions (for such he would consider them) Austria might intend with respect to with a most bloody code. Under these Spain, this country had nothing to do circumstances, it behoved his majesty's with it. Heretofore, England had gone ministers to do something to tranquillize to war to establish a balancer of power parliament and the country on the subject. in Europe. For that we were fate war Looking at the disturbed state of Greece; during nearly the whole of the reign of seeing that in Spain some of the most re- Louis 14th, and for that we had lately spectable individuals had been deported, been at war for nearly a quarter of a cen and that a civil war existed in several pro- tury. In 1790, in the case of Nootka vinces, in which, indeed, martial law had Sound, it was thought right to interfete, been proclaimed, and adverting to the and the preparations then made on the great changes of every description which part of Spain were thought sufficient to had taken place since February, he did justify a message from the Crown toshat not see how the noble marquis could jus- House on the subject. In 1790 and 1791, tify himself in sitting still and allowing we armed and continued armed for fourtyranny to be triumphantly established in teen months, not because we apprehended Europe, without the slightest interference any direct attack from the Empress Ca Lon our part to prevent it. In this state of therine, but because it was not considered things, anxiously as he and his friends had safe for the British interests, that Russia laboured to little purpose for some weeks should be suffered to take possession of past to reduce the army estimates to what Oczakow. On that occasion lond Grenthey ought to be for a peace establishment, ville, then the secretary of state for foreign and though he thought war one of the affairs, ridiculed the idea that England greatest calamities that could befall this was not interested in what was passing country, yet he thought it right to say on the continente God forbidsbatohe there might be that which would be more should think it absolutely necessary that fatal even than war to this country and the country should be again plunged into the liberties of mankind. He did not see the horrors of war! He hoped that the that the noble marquis and his colleagues noble marquis, however, lowould make could answer, not for the peace of Europe, some declaration calculated to meets the but for the peace of this country, if they occasion; and he should consider a prosuffered Russia and Austria to advance position for a vote of credit an advisable further, as they said, to seek security, but measure. The noble marquis! would in as it would ultimately be seen to carry his opinion, not do his duty, unless he told into effect new schemes of aggrandisement. Spain, that we were ready to make an He thought ministers could not answer calliance, offensive and defensive, with that for the security of Europe, or the mari-country, the moment that a single soldier

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way? The noble marquis had placed himself in a situation of great peril sand danger; but having done so, it was his duty to look the danger boldly in the face, and if he had been acting upon false principles before, he ought to retrace his steps, and use his best efforts to redeem the errors into which he had fallen. He would tell the noble marquis, that the principles acted upon by this government since the treaty of Paris and the battle of Waterloo, were subversive of the liberties of Europe. The noble marquis and his friends had stated over and over again, that the efforts made by this country had secured the happiness and tranquillity of Europe. He would ask the noble marquis where he was to look for this tranquillity of Europe. Sure he was, that it was neither to be found in this country, nor on the continent. Let the noble marquis speak out-let him tell the House what he really thought of the existing staten of affairs both at home and abroad, and he was sure that the House would be led to a different conclusion. He feared much, that unless we changed our policy unless we acted upon principles totally different from those upon which our government had acted for some time past we should be at length reduced to the humiliating situation of being obliged to beg our existence as a nation, as certain powers on the continent were now obliged to beg theirs. He believed that his majesty's ministers had no intention of forwarding the designs of the tyrants of the continent

7 was sent into it by any power in Europe, Furthery the noble marquis ought to let it I be known in France, that the moment the -French government allowed an Austrian soldier to cross the French territory to Spain, England would consider it a decla-station ofs war. 21 Heywould also recom21mend, wifeRussia persisted in her system of dictation, that a fleet should be -sent up the Baltic, for the purpose of blockading every Russian port. Such a step by destroying her commerce, would 1sogn compel her to seek an unqualified peaces If the noble marquis viewed the Jistate of Europe with the apprehension which it was certainly calculated to excite, ohe ought to form a strict alliance with Spain nand France. Let the king of France go on caltivating the affections of his people, gled the British government show them -selves: disposed to assert the rights of freedom against its assailants, and Engblandawith her navy, and France with her oheroes, might defy all the tyrants of the oworldan But if the noble marquis postopopeder measures of this nature, they would come too late. He was apprehenTsive showever, that Russia and Austria, acting as they were on a great scale to ¿ruin the diberties of the world would plead ano their justification the sconduct of the anoble marquis at Vienna, at Paris, and at aikela-Chapelle. He was afraid they 9ould retort upon the noble marquis, the oadditions to the territory of Hanover; the annexation of Belgium to Holland; the plunder of Saxony in order to -aggrandize Prussia the destruction of-they could not possess British feelings Wastemburgh to incorporate it with Ba- if they had; but what he feared was, that -varia the spoliation of Italy to enrich they, and the noble marquis in particular, Austria, the breach of faith with Genoa were blind to what those tyrants wished starfinexlit to Sardinia; and all the other to do, from the long intercourse which measures of a similar character, to which they had had together. What he wished -the noble marquis was a willing party, was, that this country should take a comThe governments of Europe would have manding attitude, not only for the preIfound it impossibles to put down the ty- servation of her own interests, but of the granny of Buonaparte, were it not for the liberties and peace of Europe. The hon. dosoperation of that people whose liberties member then alluded to the exertions were now threatened, if not destroyed. made by the different states of the contioThores peoples were promised a constitu- nent, against the tyrannical power of stion, but that promise was kept by a vio- France, and contended that the promises slation,Inot only of their liberties, but of the then made to them of free constitutions, sliberties of Europe. But, if this country had been most shamefully violated He -charged Austria and Russia with such wished to set himself right, as a member sconduct, what would be their answer?of that House, with the country and with Might they not fairly turn round upon Europe, and therefore it was that he had Lahdesretaliate by saying, that we also occupied the time of the House upon the badiacted upon a system offispoliation present occasion. The hon. member sanddoppression That we had done so concluded by moving as an amendment, a particularly at › Paris, though in a pettyThat this House will resolve itself into

VOL. V.

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a Committee of the whole House to con- | his friends, a hint which he had before sider of the State of the Nation, as con- thrown out, he would recommend to nected with the Events now passing in them, for their own sakes, not to be so Europe." very precipitate in giving their advice and opinions upon such subjects. When the affairs of Naples were last discussed in that House, he heard several statements made upon which he declined giving any opinion. He forbore at the moment from stating what line of conduct ought to be

The Marquis of Londonderry said, he could not help objecting to the mode of proceeding adopted by the hon. member. Nothing, however, which had been urged in the course of the hon. member's speech rendered it necessary for him to enter at that moment into the details of the sub-pursued by this or any other country. It ject. When he came down to the House, now appeared, that many of the statehe was under the impression that the ments then made were fallacious. WhatHouse was to enter into a discussion on ever might be the comments and opinions the navy estimates, and when such a now pronounced, he would recommend question stood upon the paper, he thought to the hon. mover and his friends to it improper that they should be diverted change their course-to act a little more from it, and dragged into an inquiry into upon realities rather than indulge in spethe state of the nation with reference to culating upon possibilities, or rather upon foreign politics. When he heard of the impossibilities. By this means much of hon. member's motion, he thought he in- the time and attention of the House would tended to show that the existing state of be spared. He did not presume to say Europe would enable us to dispense with what would be the result of present events a considerable portion of the navy esti- on the continent, but he would caution mates. But instead of hearing it recom- the hon. member against assuming, that mended that a great portion of those esti- because the Russian army had been put mates should be cut down, he could not in motion in consequence of certain help feeling some surprise at finding an events in Piedmont, they were therefore accusation made against him which would to proceed to other countries, and for form the ground of impeachment, for not other purposes. He would not take upon having called upon the House, by a mes- himself the task of prophesying what sage from the Crown, to grant such addi- would happen, as it was at best a useless tional sums as would place the country in office; but he would say, that there being a situation to resist the dangers with at present no evidence of such a fact as which she was threatened. He must, the advance of the Russian army, it was however, with all respect, decline the al- wrong to assume, and then argue upon it. ternative which the hon. member had He would state to the House how it was given him. The hon. member had also that the Russian army was put in motion. given him much advice, and no doubt It was known that an insurrection similar with the best possible intention; he re- to that of Naples, which had been much commended entering into treaties offen- panegyrised by several members opposite, sive and defensive with France and Spain, had taken place in Piedmont. It was blockading the greater part of the said that both insurrections had taken Northern ports, and many other measures place in the cause of liberty. He never of a very salutary nature no doubt, but could dignify by the word liberty the atwhich were, he must say, wholly thrown tempts of a military body to resist their. away upon him. He felt it necessary lawful sovereign, and tear down and also to decline all political advice, when destroy the most sacred institutions of it came from an hon. member who did not the country, without knowing or caring appear to see the political state of Europe by what those institutions were to be with sufficient clearness to enable him to replaced. Of this description was the make up his own mind upon it. He felt insurrection in Piedmont." The king of that ministers would act with great rash- Sardinia resigned in favour of his broness if they followed any advice so ten-ther, and his nephew was placed at the dered to them. He never knew it to be the parliamentary course to goad ministers into any act, or any explanation, by such an irregular proceeding as that adopted by the hon. member. If the hon. member would allow him to suggest to him and to

head of the provisional government. Ina few days he also was forced to retire from his regency. The first act of the new government was a declaration of war against. Austria. Without entering into the motives of this proceeding, it was sufficient