fected in the whole expenditure. Economy ought to begin at the head of the state, and proceed downwards; and he was convin The Marquis of Londonderry objected to these preliminary discussions, because they enabled gentlemen to make bold and exaggerated assertions, the fallacy of which could not be detected until the details were entered into in the committee The hon. member had stated the expenditure at 17 millions, forgetting that 5 millions was a dead expense for pensions, half-pay, and other allowances: so that 12 millions only remained for the government of this immense empire; and from this the hon. gentleman maintained that 4 millions might be saved. The hon. gentleman would not have risked such a statement in the committee. There was no practicable economy that ministers were not desirous of making. like the present, when so much distress prevailed, when so many manufacturing towns were on the verge of insolvency, and when so many taxes were so patient-ced that the king himself would set the exly borne, the people of England were ample. He applauded the manly straightlooking with anxious eyes to those who forward course pursued by Mr. Pitt represented them in the great council of in 1792, compared with the low shuffling the nation. They had crowded the table of the present ministers. He admitted, with petitions, with the strongest prayers however, that in forming a scheme of exin the most courteous language. In the penditure, on the estimates of 1792, it discussion of the Army and Navy esti- would be fit to make allowance for the mates, great efforts had been made to increased price of things, for the half pay, effect reductions, but they had failed. and the increased pay of the navy. Those exertions had, however, had the effect of clearly exposing to view a system of extravagance of which he, for one, had no idea, and which had induced many well-thinking persons to say, that if the House did not reform itself within, a revolution must take place without. He believed that the first would be the case, for he would prophecy that no war-minister would next year bring down such estimates as those of the present year: if he did, he would be addressed in the language which his majesty recently used when he saw the head of Charles the First in the vault at Windsor,-" Take it away! it is too horrid to contemplate." He hoped nothing would induce the gentlemen opposite him to relax in their exertions for economy. He, for one, would remain by them till Christmas to oppose a single shilling being voted beyond what was absolutely necessary. The distress of the country was such, that if relief was not given, the yeomanry must be annihilated, and it could not but excite the utmost disgust that, under such circumstances, extravagant establishments should be persisted in. He would move, as an amendment, "That it be an Instruction to the said Committee, that, duly taking into consideration the present distressed state of the Country, they will proceed to enforce a system of the most rigid Economy, as far as the same can be effected without detriment to the substantial interests of the State." The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he did not deny the general proposition, but he would deny that there existed any necessity for the instruction proposed. Mr. Maberly said, that the wanton extravagance of ministers was not to be endured. Seventeen millions were spent annually upon our military establishments in time of peace. What must it be if a war were to break out? He was satisfied that a saving of four millions might be ef Mr. Calcraft was happy that this resolution had been brought forward. When, night after night, such vain attempts at reduction were made by a few, against overbearing ministerial majorities, such motions could not be too frequently made. The greater the dead expense which must be borne, the more necessary it was economise in those charges that could be diminished. He saw plainly that the principles of a military government were in a gradual course of introduction; and he was much more suspicious of so large a standing army under the control of the present ministers, than of other persons. He was quite sure that large savings might be made in the Ordnance department, as he would show when the House came to the items. Mr. Huskisson contended, that as the civil list was granted for the reign, no reduction could be made in it, though he admitted that both it and the collection of the revenue might be proper subjects of debate. The instruction to the committee, if carried, could have no effect, as the utmost economy had been observed in the formation of the estimates, It was very convenient for the other side to keep it out of view; but the House would not forget that the estimates for this year were a million and a half below those of the preceding. Lord Milton said, that when the gentlemen opposite declared the impossibility of reducing the estimates, he could not forget asimilar declaration made in the same quar. ter a fortnight before the House of Commons deprived the ministers of the property tax. On that occasion, the secretary at war declared he could not reduce the army estimates; yet a fortnight after the repeal of the property tax, his noble friend came down with reduced estimates, although a week or two before, all economy was declared impossible. Let them now look the pension list, and say if it was not possible to reduce that branch of the public expenditure. Let them look to that part of it filled by the names of members of that House. He did not allude to the noble marquis opposite, nor to the chancel for of the exchequer, nor to the president of the board of trade all these he should always wish to see members of that House; but let them look to the right and the left, and say if there were not some members in their view who ought not to hold their pensions and their seats. Against the inordinate expenditure of the government he must protest; its inevitable effect, if continued, must be to break down altogether the middle classes of society. There would then only remain the very rich, and very poor, and the valuable link hitherto connecting both, would no longer remain. He could not help thinking that government incurred a great deal of this unnecessary expenditure, in consequence of their not being sufficiently acquainted with the real state of the country.. Mr. Hume contended for the right of parliament to review the amount of the civil list, and hoped that before the year was expired, the amount of that establishment would be reduced. If ever a House of Commons had been indifferent to the people's purse, it was when they established the civil list at 870,000l. a year-a sum now, from the change in the value of moDey, equal to 1,400,000l. It was said, that the estimates for this year were a million and a half less than those of the last, In answer to this, he would assert, that the Ordnance estimates for the present year exceeded by 100,000/ those of the lasto nosd bad ymong va en The question being put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part VOL. V. to r of the question," the House divided.; Ayes, 65; Noes, 40: Majority against the Amendment, 25. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. Ward moved, "That 14,6311, 5s. be granted for the pay of Civil Officers and Clerks belonging to the Office of Ordnance on Foreign Stations for 1821." Mr. Hume entered into a review of the several items which composed the vote. He said that all the Ordnance establishments abroad ought to be considerably reduced. The Gibraltar establishment ought to be diminished: so ought the Malta, which had been considerably augmented since 1808. In Barbadoes the Ordnance expense was increased from 4871. to 880.; the Ceylon from 1,150, in 1808, to 3,270. In the Ionian islands, where 500l. ought to be sufficient, the Ordnance expense was 1,258. At the Cape of Good Hope the number of clerks had also been increased. There was another item worth observation; it was that of 2381, for the storekeeper in Heligoland; the person filling the office was in England for six months of the last year, and his only duty was to take charge of the powder for firing the morning and evening gun. Formerly a serjeant's party of 50 men had charge of Heligoland; now there was a garrison of 100 men. Thus an expense of 10,000l. was incurred for an island, the fee-simple of which was not worth half the money. He thought that the salaries in this department of the ordnance expenditure ought to be reduced one-fourth. He should therefore move as an amendment, that the proposed sum of 14,631.5s. be reduced to 10,973. 9s. Mr. Ward assured the hon. member, that when the salaries of the clerks alluded to had been augmented, they had been deprived of certain perquisites which they previously enjoyed. The Ceylon establishment had been increased, because the Ordnance had not only Columbo to serve but Tricomalee and Pont de Galli. In Malta, during the war, the local government paid a portion of the expense, which now altogether devolved upon the Ordnance department. It was a curious fact, that the fortifications at Malta, on which 600 guns were mounted, would, if extended into one straight line, occupy 50 miles of ground. With respect to the garrison at Heligoland, the argument of the hon. gentleman was most fallacious. He might as well say, that because, when Gibraltar was taken it was supplied with a garrison 3 I of 500 men, that therefore it should only have the same complement now. had been called upon to reduce the expense at Malta, the revenue of which would have been quite sufficient to defray its own expense, if some members of the needy nobility had not been quartered upon it; but such was the case with many other colonies, and with the Cape of Good Hope in particular. The call was, therefore, in vain, because it was addressed to ministers, who maintained their power through the aid of needy nobles and other political adventurers, all of whom sought their own interest at the expense of a suffering and impoverished country. Mr. Ward could not but regret that gentlemen should avail themselves of their privilege to slander individuals who had no means of answering the charges brought against them. Mr. Hume denied that he had made any sweeping charges. In challenging particular facts, he had been anxious to confine himself to those facts, and not to indulge in generalities. Mr. W. Smith said, that when the Cape of Good Hope was in the possession of the Dutch, it did not cost the government a single stiver. Why, then, should it be expensive to this country? Some inquiry ought to take place on this subject.brow Mr. Ward said, it was a fallacy to ar Mr. Bennet said, that the right hon. member had introduced a most dangerous doctrine with respect to compensations. He had stated that a certain number of persons had been accustomed, for a considerable period, to receive perquisites and allowances of a particular description, in lieu of which compensation was now made to their descendants; so that because A, B, C, and D, were lineally descended from certain public officers, they were to be remunerated, in consequence of an abuse having been removed, by which their ancestors had profited; because a robbery was found out, and it was deemed necessary to prevent its recurrence, therefore those individuals were to receive compensations. No gentleman could think of supporting such a proposition unless he was affected by that sort of mania which pervaded the Ordnance Ordnance department, where they were so powerfully inoculated with the disease of extravagance, that they could not get rid of it. Unless gentlemen were possessed by such a devil as this, it was impossible that they could state, much less agree to, a proposition of this nature. It reminded him of an attempt made by an individual some time ago to procure compensation; and it ap-gue that the Dutch kept the Cape against peared to him that the person in question a superior maritime power, seeing that we could have borrowed the idea only from had taken it from them. the Ordnance department. The magistrates of Middlesex, finding that a number of the most depraved characters were in the habit of visiting Coldbath-fields prison, set an inquiry on foot to discover the reason of it. At last it came out, that a clerk at one of the policeoffices was in the habit of handing up to Mr. Goulburn denied that the reve the magistrates a list of persons who nues of the Cape had ever defrayed the wished to visit their friends in gaol, and expenses of its civil and military estathat from each of the applicants, he re-blishments, when that colony was in the ceived a fee. When this was discovered, what did the clerk do? Why, he called out for compensation. He quoted high authorities in his favour, and observed that they had their compensations, and he must have his. What did the magistrates say? They told him that he should have no compensation, because they did not understand the system of rewarding individuals for their misconduct. He entreated the House to consider how they must be regarded by the country, if, after so many forcible appeals to their justice, they should still continue to disregard every consideration of economy. They Mr. Warre said, that every exertion ought to be made to compel the colonies to defray their own expenditure.deThe salary of the governor of the Cape was 10,000l. a year, while that of the secre tary of state in this country was only 6,000l. bed odw possession of the Dutch. The civil esta wei edt rebau The committee divided: For the Amendment, 55; Against it, 86% On the next resolution, "That 56,000l. be granted for 6 defraying the incidental Charges, ordinary Repairs, and Barrack Expenses at the Tower, and the several Forts, Garrisons, and places under the Ordnance, in Great Britain, Guernsey, and Jersey, for 1821," Mr. Gipps objected to the estimate, as being too large, and moved that the sum of 56,000 should be reduced to 33,000l. After a short conversation, the committee divided: For the Amendment, 64; Against it, 99. The resolution was agreed to; after which, the chairman reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. HOUSE OF LORDS. Lad come Monday, May 21. GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.] The House having resolved into va committee on this bill, The Earl of Liverpool said, the first enactment declared that the borough of Grampound should cease to return members to parliament. With this enactment be entirely agreed. It was a distinct proposition from the remainder of the clause which proposed to provide for supplying the deficiency created. As this latter part might form a subject of discussion, he would propose that all that part of the clause which follows the word " parlia'ment," should be left out. The Lord Chancellor said, that although he objected totally to the principle of the bill, yet as parliament had frequently passed bills for disfranchising voters, he thought he should be doing more than he ought to do, if he proposed any thing more than to make this measure consistent with the precedents established by former bills. Those who had not been proved guilty should not be punished. He therefore proposed, that there should be inserted in the clause these words "That henceforth the burgesses of the borough of Grampound which have not been convicted, shall be the sonly electors for that borough." Lord Erskine was decidedly in favour of the bill as it stood, and would vote against the amendment. He had heard, with a great deal of satisfaction, the noble and learned lord, because he liked to hear arguments against bills of pains and penalties from the highest law authority in the state; and he never could wish that any man should forfeit by the law what he held under the law. Here, however, a systematic corruption had been proved, and called for the visitation of a remedial law. The true question was, were their lordships satisfied that the corruption of the electors of Grampound had been systematically such, as to disqualify them from exercising the elective franchise? He was satisfied that they could not return members of parliament purely and independently. Their lordships had not before them a question of personal rights, but of national policy; and he supported the bill, because he saw in it a regulation which it would be for the benefit of the public to adopt. When their lordships saw a disposition to revile and disparage the House of Commons, which could not be done without making the constitution suffer in every part, they ought to be sensible of the necessity of adopting a measure which was calculated to remove objections to the constitution of that House, which existed in the minds, not only of the persons called radicals, but of the most respectable classes of the community. The question, as proposed by the earl of Liverpool, being put, The Earl of Harrowby thought it became the duty of parliament, when such cases of gross and notorious corruption were brought before it, to meet them. With respect to the present being a bill of pains and penalties, such a measure was clearly a remedial law, and applicable in the deficiency of the existing law. What, indeed, was the system of English law but punishing in many cases the innocent with the guilty? From the Revolution to the present hour, it unfortunately so hap pened, that descendants were punished for the offences of those who preceded them. Had not their lordships for centuries past been punishing the innocent Catholics for guilt that was attributed to their forefathers? The system was to be deplored; but it appeared to be inseparable from the nature of things. The Earl of Westmorland thought the principle of this bill was most pernicious. There were at present laws against corruption, which punished the guilty much more effectually than any of these remedial innovations upon the constitution. It confounded the innocent with the guilty. It made the former answerable for crimes which they had never committed, while it passed over the crimes of the latter with comparative impunity. Lord Melville defended the principle of the bill. He said it was no sufficient objection to the measure to say that it involved the punishment of the nocent. Such punishment was airea [856 public interest? In the present case, the most systematic and long continued core ruption had been established; and there fore he contended that the borough ought to be disfranchised. He objected to simply opening it to the hundred, because that would be to increase the local representation. The best way to resist speculative reform was to listen to every case in which a practical evil was alleged, and when sufficiently proved, to remedy it. dý known to the law. There were many cases in which the public welfare rendered this hardship necessary. In the case of the hundred being sued for damage done to individuals during riots, the innocent might be said to suffer, because the exacting of the damages from the hundred was not merely meant as an indemnification for the loss sustained, but as a punishment for not preventing the riot. Cases had occurred in Scotland, which were applicable to the present. Some years ago, a corrupt agreement was proved to have been entered into by certain members of the corporation of the borough of Kinghorn. They were sued before the court of session, and that court decided that the corporation could not be reduced. This judgment was brought by appeal before their lordships' House. What was then done? Their lordships reversed the decision of the court of session. Sometime after, three individuals belonging to the borough of Stirling were proved to have entered into a corrupt agreement, and this question came again under the consideration of the court of session. That court profiting perhaps by the decision of the House of Lords in the former case, reduced the corporation. This judgment was also appealed against; but their lordships affirmed the decision of the court of session. These cases proved that they had already acted on the prin ciple laid down in the present bill. Lord Redesdale objected to the measure, on the ground that it was completely revolutionary in its principle. It was argued, that the number of representatives in Cornwall was too large. If that argument were admitted to be valid, they must proceed to remodel the whole constitution. To agree to the measure would be to proceed to sea without compass or rudder. The Earl of Liverpool remarked, that his noble friend had completely misapprehended the argument of the advocates of the bill. That argument was, that whatever might be the number of electors in a place, while they exercised their right justly, they ought not to be deprived of it; but that if corruption were proved against them, it was the duty of the legislature to apply a remedy. As to punishing the innocent with the guilty, was not that done at the Revolution, when by the change of dynasty, the descendants of James the second were punished for the crimes of James the second, because it was for the The Lord Chancellor could not agree to a measure which must have the effect of confounding the innocent with the guilty. He did not consider the cases referred to as having a bearing on the question. He had concurred with Mo Fox and Mr. Ellis in opposing the bill for the disfranchising Stockbridge, and con ceived that the same objections applied to the present measure. In order to disfran chise a borough, nothing more would in future be necessary, but to get a ma jority of the electors to take money. The place would then be deprived of the right of election, and the innocent punished for the guilty. The Marquis of Lansdown argued in favour of the bill. If, when by the lapse of time, and by other circumstances, a borough was reduced to a state in which the electors were incapable of discharging their duty with fidelity, the legislature refused to exercise their power of transferring the elective franchise, they abandoned one of their most important duties. With reference to the objection, that the innocent would suffer with the guilty, that was the necessary result of many legisla live measures; for instance, the act of 1805, by which the inhabitants of any district in Ireland were subjected to heavy fines in the event of the discovery of illicit distillation in that district As to the place to which the franchise should be transferred, he ridiculed the theory that there was in the surrounding district an inherent right to it. He was certainly in favour of transferring the franchise to some populous and unrepresented place; because, however averse to any sweeping change in the representation, he was yet desirous to repair the inroads of that great innovator time, by connecting mote intimately, whenever an opportunity occurred, large bodies of the people with the representatives of the people fol adopted the principle of depriving a body Earl Bathurst thought, if the House of electors of the right of suffrage, they 13 |