4 ductive of serious alarm in the manufacturing districts, and would give rise to the presentation of numerous peti tions from all parts of the country to that House. He trusted, therefore, that the bon, member would confine himself to the presentation of the petition, and would not follow it up with any specific motion. It had been generally agreed, that some alteration in the law respecting the exportation of machinery should take place; and the question having been agitated some time ago, a regulation was made, giving to the Board of Trade a discretion, as to the kinds of machinery which might or might not be exported. The discretion thus vested in the Board of Trade was of a most disagreeable and unpleasant nature. It was, moreover, liable to this objection, that in whatever way the Board of Trade decided, the party refused the right of exportation conceived himself injured and wrongly dealt by. Upon this ground alone he felt the necessity of establishing some fixed and settled principle of exportation and prohibition of all articles of machinery. He had himself endeavoured to lay down a rule by which the discretion vested in the Board of Trade should be regulated; and that principle was that where machinery was of great bulk, and contained a great quantity of the raw material, no objection should be made to exportation, as he considered that no injury could be done to the country by it. But where machinery was of modern construction, and depended mainly upon the ingenuity and excellence of the mechanism, and where the raw material used was trifling, then the exportation of such machinery was prohibited. It was a notorious fact, that many manufacturing establishments were at this moment standing still, under the expectation of obtain ing machinery from this country. Under such circumstances then, and particularly in the present state of the manufacturing interests, he implored the hon. member not to agitate the question at this period. He had no objection to the petition being brought up and read, and, if necessary, printed; but he did not wish it to go forth to the public, that the whole law with respect to the exportation of machinery might be safely repealed. Mr. Littleton protested against the sweeping doctrines laid down by the hon. member for Aberdeen. As a representative of a large manufacturing county, he would that if such doctrines were to say, go abroad, and to be acted upon by that House, the greatest alarm would be created throughout the country. He meant nothing offensive to the hon. member for Aberdeen, when he stated with confidence, that the alarm existing among the manufacturing interests was not at all diminished by the fact, that that hon. member had taken the lead upon this important question. There was not any one great town in England, from Nottingham downward, that did not entertain alarm at, and that had not expressed a wish to be exempted from, his measures relative to trade. For himself, he thought it a most difficult question for any person, or set of persons, to de, fine the kinds of machinery which might be exported, and those which were to be prohibited. Under this impression, he thought that the most advisable course would be for the right hon. gentleman to present the skeleton of a bill, accompanied by schedules of the allowed and prohibited machinery, and to refer that bill to a select committee, who should have the power of filling up the blanks. That a revision of the law was necessary was beyond all doubt; because as it now stood, though the exportations of certain machines was prohibited, yet it was much doubted whether that law prevented the exportation of the same machinery in parts. Upon this question of the exportation of machinery, a memorial had been some time since presented to the Board of Trade, from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, containing such sound and practical arguments against indiscriminate exportation, that he wished it was possible to have it printed and laid before the public. That memorial stated, that if the finer and more ingenious parts of machinery were allowed to be sent abroad, the artisans and manufacturers would soon emigrate after them. He hoped the hon. member would not follow up the petition with any motion on this delicate and important subject. 7 Colonel Torrens said, that, although he agreed in principle with those who looked upon free trade as a great advantage, he was far from going along with them to the extent to which they proposed to carry it. He thought that the principle of free trade must be ever limited by another principles namely, the policy of each country reserving to itself the sole benefit of those exclusive advantages, which, either from nature or by acquisition, it might enjoy. consideration. It would, in his opinion, Why should we not take advantage of the materials which were placed exclusively in our hands, and confine the enjoyment of them to ourselves? We had, for instance, coals at a cheap rate from our mines. He had some time ago been told by a manufacturer on the Seine, that he could not work his steam-engine, on account of the dearness of fuel. Now, he thought that if a duty of fifty per cent were levied on coals exported to the continent, it would produce two good effects. In the first place, it would, to a certain extent, benefit our revenue; and in the next, it would prevent the foreign manufacturer from competing with us. He was, generally speaking, a friend to free trade. But, in every science, there must necessarily be exceptions. There could be no universal principle applicable to all circumstances. Now, it was admitted on all hands, even by the hon. member for Aberdeen, that we made better machinery than our rivals; that they could not compete with us in that branch of art; and that our manufactures were, in consequence, cheaper and better. If such was the case, he would ask, why we should give up our ex-large quantity of the raw material, but the clusive advantage? He would contend, that we ought to keep, with a firm hand, all our exclusive advantages, because they evidently ministered to the wealth and the prosperity of the country. The country was now, as it were, in a storm, and we ought to keep the ropes tight, and let nothing go, until fair weather came round again. Sir H. Parnell did not conceive that any mischief could arise to any branch of our trade or commerce, by the exportation of machinery of whatever description. The use of that machinery would enable other countries to increase their wealth, and we should ultimately derive a proportionate benefit from such increase. It appeared to him unjust to withhold this liberty from the manufacturers of machines. They formed a large class of the community; and he could not see why their interests should be sacrificed to those of other manufacturers, the produce of whose industry was exported. Mr. Baring said, he thought that it would conduce to the economy of the time of the House, if hon. members would avoid making long speeches upon presenting petitions, and reserve themselves until the specific questions to which such petitions related came properly under their articles proposed to be prohibited were, as far as the material was concerned, of trifling value, and were only prized be cause of the ingenuity and skill exercised in their construction. As the law now stood, however, it was almost impossible to define what might and what might not be exported; so that, after all, it would be most advisable to appoint a board, who should have power to regulate the whole question of the exportation of ma chinery. If we were driven to the question of an unqualified exportation, or a total restriction of machinery, he, for one, should prefer the latter. But we were not driven to this extremity; and the best course would be, to appoint a proper tri bunal, which should have the power of de ciding the articles of machinery which might be exported, and those which ought to be prohibited. Mr. Warburton was of opinion, that the discussion of such an important sub ject as this ought not to be confined to one field-day, but that it ought to be fre quently brought under the consideration of the House. The speech of the hon. member for Ipswich rested entirely qu the assumption that this country posh sessed a monopoly of the more ingenious, machinery, and therefore ought to enforce to it. Now, he denied that this assumption | he inveighed against the then existing Mr. Secretary Peel said, that when the hon. member for Aberdeen, in the last parliament, had expressed his determination to introduce a measure for the repeal of the present law, he had urged him to postpone it, because he thought it was due to the feelings of the manufacturers not to make so great an alteration at that particular time; and, in his opinion, the present was as little suited for such an experiment. They had been told that it was quite absurd to continue this law, and to prohibit the exportation of machinery, because drawings of the different machines were to be found in the Scotch Encyclopædia. But, since the year 1821, when that Encyclopædia was published, many improvements had been made in those machines. [Mr. Warburton, "Then they are secrets."] Then, if they were secrets, why should not the country profit by them as much as possible? This was a question which ought not to be hastily taken up. They had already had some experience of the ill effects attending a precipitate decision on long-established laws. When the hon. gentleman brought forward the repeal of the combination laws, he laid down some broad general principles, which sounded very well. He called on the House to put the master and the journeyman upon the same footing; and 10 of the cor and Mr. Bright observed, that the effect of particular systems of law was frequently over-rated, their real operation being ascer tained correctly, as soon as they were repealed. Such had been the case with the combination laws; and, as soon as the statutes forbidding the exportation of machinery should be abrogated, it might be found that they had materially contributed to the protection of the manufacturer. He trusted that, in the present session, the true principles of political economy would be better understood, and that no sudden change in the existing law would be attempted. Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. 169 HOUSE OF COMMONS. porce Thursday, December 7. EMIGRATION.] Mr. W. Horton presented petitions from Glasgow and Calton, in favour of Emigration, as a measure necessary for the relief of the distressed manufacturers. Mr. Hume hoped that ministers would be prepared to introduce some measure on the subject, as it was one in which thousands and tens of thousands were interested. Mr. Wilmot Horton said, he was on the point of rising to give notice, that on the 15th of February, he would move to renew the committee on emigration, which had sat during the last session. He assured the hon. member, that it would not at all forward his object to force a decision on the subject at the present moment. The individuals who desired to emigrate could not be removed at this season of the year with any advantage to themselves. The with an subject of emigration was so extensive in its nature, that the House ought to have the fullest information upon it. Mr. Abercromby contended, that government ought to come forward with some specific plan for the relief of the thousands of artisans who were now starving in different parts of the country. Mr. J. Grattan agreed with his learned friend, that some more explicit declaration was wanted from government. He did not entertain any great hopes of advantage from the renewal of the committee which had sat last session. Indeed, the opinion of that committee, as far as it could be collected from their report, was adverse to emigration. Mr. W. Horton dissented from the assertion, that the report of the committee held out no hopes of advantage from emigration. He knew not what better evidence could have been collected than that which was collected by the committee, to throw light upon this important subject. He hoped that the next committee would be able to propose some temporary measure, which would in no way interfere with any permanent measure which it might ultimately think proper to adopt. Sir James Graham said, it was evident, from the correspondence into which ministers had entered with the editor of the "Glasgow Free Press," that they were favourably inclined to the system of emigration. He was sorry to find that they were ready to see thousands of their fellow countrymen seeking to be exiled from their native land. The system of emigration was contrary to the spirit of our laws, and opposed to many of our most ancient regulations. He admitted, that it was necessary to do something to relieve the distresses under which so many of our artisans were at present sinking. He was sorry to inform the House, that since the petition from Carlisle had been presented, he had received accounts, stating that their distress was increasing daily. He could state to the House, that the hand-weavers did not at present receive more than 5s. a week; for which sum they laboured fourteen hours a day. They were most of them a year's rent in arrear, and were therefore liable not only to have that small portion of their property which remained unpledged, sold to defray the claims upon them, but to be ejected from their tenements. Their diet was of the humblest description, oatmeal and potatoes, and their whole appearance showed that they were reduced to an extremity of want. In fact, there were thousands and tens of thousands of them on the verge of starvation at that moment. He was not going to examine into the causes which had led to this distress; but he believed that one, and perhaps the chief, was placed beyond the reach of parliamentary interposition: he alluded to the improvements which had been recently made in the power-looms. The handweavers could not be converted into power-loom weavers, and they were thus compelled to continue a hopeless struggle with power-loom weavers, at a rate of wages which was regularly decreasing. Under these circumstances, some special remedy ought to be applied by government to the distresses of the country. He thought they were so great as even to justify a grant of public money to relieve them. Mr. Warburton wished to be informed how, under the present system of our Corn-laws, the corn grown in the colonies was to be sent to England to pay the quitrent, which was to re-imburse the government for the expenses it might incur in carrying emigrants to the place of their destination. Mr. Secretary Peel deprecated the continuance of the present discussion. It was of great importance that hon. gentlemen should keep their minds open to information on this subject, and that they should not pledge themselves to opinions now, which might, by possibility, fetter their judgments hereafter. There were many points connected with the subject of emigration, into which it would be incumbent on the House to examine before it came to any determination. They must consider; first, how far emigration would be available to meet the distress which now prevailed in this country on account of the population being greater than the demand for labour; and secondly, how far the encouragement of emigration would affect the interests of the colonies. It might be impossible to incur the expense of relieving the distress of the country by emigration, and when it was recollected, that an expense of 201. was to be incurred for each emigrant, it could not be expected that the excess of the population could be sensibly relieved by emigration. One might, however, see an advantage in supplying the waste lands. in the North American provinces with an I would depart from the rule which they had active population, inasmuch as it would laid down three sessions ago. On a create an increased demand for British motion which his hon. relative had then manufactures. There would also be, in brought forward respecting the best mode his opinion, a great advantage to the of relieving the distress which prevailed in colonies by encouraging emigration upon Ireland owing to a redundancy of popua large scale, even though it might not lation, it had been laid down by ministers, mitigate the distress of the mother country. that the interference of government, in the He was sorry that the hon. baronet had way of an advance of money, was highly fallen into the fallacy which had been so improper. He contended, however, that ably exposed on a former night. He had where there was a redundant population, said, that there were at present many it must be relieved by an advance of individuals who were willing to place capital, otherwise it could not be got rid of. themselves in the same situation with A special remedy was required for a special convicts, and who voluntarily asked for case of distress; and more inconvenience that exile which the law attached as a would be occasioned to the country, in the penalty to great crimes. Now this was present instance, by adhering to fixed not the case. The exile into which the rules, than would be occasioned to it, petitioners wished to enter was very in other instances, by departing from different from that to which convicts were them. consigned. In the first place, the exile of Mr. Benett contended, that it would the convict was a punishment, and in-be better to put the waste lands of Engflieted upon him legal infamy. He went land into cultivation, than to send our out stigmatized by a conviction for crime, population abroad to engage in similar and not as a free settler. His labour was employment. The waste lands of Engnot his own; but was appropriated to land, would long since have been cultianother individual who paid him no wages vated, had it not been for the embargo for it. On the other hand, so far was the of tithes and taxation which was laid exile into which the emigrant went from upon them. He thought it extraordinary being considered as a punishment, that that, at a time when we had eleven many individuals who were in possession millions of acres ready for cultivation, we of a small capital, and by no means in a should send our population at the expense state of distress, had made application to of 201. a man, to cultivate the woods and the government in the following style: deserts of Canada. He believed that "Give me a grant of a hundred or two nothing was wanted in Ireland but the hundred acres, and I will transport security of life and property, to rescue myself and family to Canada, because I the waste lands of that country from their feel that I can turn my capital to greater present uncultivated state. If life and effect in that country than I can do here." property were rendered secure in that Individuals who made such applications country, English and Scotch capital would scarcely considered themselves exiles, and soon flow in. He objected to the project certainly ought not to be described as of emigration, and thought that the inindividuals placed in the situation of quiry into the propriety of it, should be convicts. It was the repetition of this postponed till after the discussion of the extravagant argument that had induced Corn-laws. If the prayer of the numerous him to rise upon this occasion, and to in- petitions which the hon. member for treat gentlemen not to pledge themselves Aberdeen had presented should be granted, to any hasty opinions on the subject of the House would have a number not only emigration, until they had read the report of manufacturing but also of agricultural of the committee upon it, and the evidence labourers, praying to be banished from attached to that report. The information their country. He trusted, however, that which colonel Cockburn had given to the both classes of labourers would soon find committee was particularly valuable, from employment in their native country, and the knowledge which he possessed on the would long remain in it, adding to its subject, and well deserved the attention of wealth, and increasing its resources. hon. gentlemen. Mr. Maberly trusted that ministers would take the advice which had been tendered to them by the hon. baronet, and Mr. W. Horton said, that if the hon. member would allow him, he would propose him as one of the committee; and he had little doubt, but he would soon be con |