Sir H. Hardinge answered, that it was necessary to form a proper dépôt in Lower Canada, where, at present, there was not a place in which they could keep a canister of powder in safety. With respect to the year for this work, instead of 12,0007., | intention to erect a line of forts on the which he had taken in former years. In river St. Lawrence. He wished to know three years the work, he expected, would whether these projects were to be carried be completed. There was, on the whole, on without any information being given to a reduction of 104,000l. on the present the House on the subject? estimate, as compared with the estimate of last year; and he hoped the committee would feel gratified with that reduction, especially as there was an increase of numbers in part of the establishment. With regard to the resolution for defray-second point, no intention existed to form ing the salaries of the principal officers of the Ordnance, the amount specified in it was lower than the estimate of last year by 3,1767. This reduction was occasioned in consequence of the last mastergeneral not drawing any salary from that department since he became commanderin-chief. The gallant officer concluded by moving, "That the sum of 48,4761. be granted, for defraying the salaries to the lieutenant-general, and the rest of the principal officers and clerks belonging to the office of Ordnance at the Tower and Pall-Mall, for the year 1827." Mr. Hume observed, that, looking to the whole of the estimate, there was not such a saving to the country as they had a right to expect. At the conclusion of the former peace, 18,000l. defrayed the expense of the artillery establishment at the Tower, and the military establishment in Westminster, but they now cost 96,000l. If these two establishments were united, it would effect a saving of at least 48,0007. He wished to know whether it was intended to unite them? Sir H. Hardinge admitted, that if such a union could be made, a saving would unquestionably be effected by it. But the thing was perfectly impossible; and for this reason— -the military stores, arms, &c. were kept at the Tower, and must remain there. The finance committee, it was true, mentioned the dépôt at Woolwich as sufficient; but, he was prepared to contend, that it would be necessary, under all circumstances, to keep a large quantity of stores at the Tower. If they could remove the office of the Clerk of the Ordnance to Pall-Mall, there would also be a saving; but the rooms at Pall-Mall were already filled with clerks; and therefore, if an alteration were made, a new building must be erected. Thus in the very outset, a considerable expense would be incurred. Mr. Baring alluded to a rumour which he had heard of certain works that were going on in Lower Canada, and also of an such a line of defence as the hon. member had alluded to. In the course of the year 1825, a commission which had been sent to that country recommended that, at certain points, works should be raised; but the defence of so extensive a frontier as had been mentioned was not contemplated. There were, undoubtedly, parts of that territory which required additional defence. With respect to Halifax, for instance, it was recommended, that quarters should be provided for a body of troops, and a proper building erected for the reception of a quantity of stores. These measures appeared to be necessary; because, if an enemy turned the sea-batteries, as the place was at present situated, the town must fall into his power. Besides, as Canada was locked up during a certain period of the year, it was proper that stores should be collected in places of safety. In Upper Canada, it was intended to erect a small work on the same model, of which an estimate would be furnished. It was not intended as a point d'appui, but as a military dépôt, where troops and stores might be established. As to a regular line of defence along the river St. Lawrence, no such thing was intended. Before any part of this recommendation was carried into effect, the total amount of the pro'jected work would be estimated by the master-general, and the House would have an opportunity of at once discussing and deciding the question. Mr. Hume observed, that the items on account of Canada amounted to no less a sum than 51,4757. This was rather strange, after they had been told last night, that Canada was the finest country in the world: that it was rich in every species of produce; and yet, rich as it was, poor England was obliged to find money to support it. The inhabitants, it appeared, could not pay for the defence of their country. We had a losing trade with Canada; and we were likewise at the expense of keeping up forts to protect that losing trade. The only chance of deriving benefit from the produce of that country was destroyed by the operation of the Cornlaws. Sir H. Hardinge said, that Canada, being an integral part of the British dominions, was as much entitled to protection as any other portion of the empire. Mr. Hume said Canada was but a colony, and stood in a very different situation from Ireland or Scotland. After some further conversation, the several resolutions were agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, February 19. GRANTS TO THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF CLARENCE.] The Resolutions of the committee of the whole House on the King's Message were brought up. On the motion, "That the Resolutions be now read a second time," The Marquis of Tavistock said, that he should not discharge the duty which he owed to his constituents, or consult the real interest of the Crown itself, if he did not oppose the present motion. He would not go so far as to say, that this grant of 9,000l. a year was likely to be much felt by the country, even in its present state of distress; but he would say, that considering the circumstances under which it was proposed considering the present state of the country, and the reductions which had been actually made in the salaries of many public servants, who had nothing but their salaries to support them-he did think that, to say the least of it, it was one of the most indecent and most ill-timed propositions he ever remembered during his parliamentary experience. He was perfectly astonished, that the chancellor of the Exchequer, who had really a character to lose, could have lent himself to such a proposition. He returned his most cordial thanks to his noble friend, the member for Northamptonshire, for the upright and uncompromising spirit with which he had discharged his public duty, and he should certainly take the sense of the House on the present motion. The House divided: For the Resolutions 173, Against them 57. Majority 116. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then moved, "That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolutions." Mr. Hume rose, and was proceeding to address the House, when he was inter rupted by much noise, and cries of "Question." The hon. member then sat down for the purpose of allowing those who wished to prevent any further discussion of the question, an opportunity to state their objections. There not seeming, however, to be any disposition to take that course, and it being intimated that he was about to propose another amendment, the hon. gentleman was allowed to proceed. Hé began by observing, that he hoped those hon. members who were not endowed with patience enough to hear what he had to say, would take the opportunity to leave the House. Although they might feel uneasy to have their time occupied by such discussions, or feel a disregard of the public interest, he hoped they would not blame him for a conscientious intention to do what he considered his duty. It was his wish to prevent what he considered an unnecessary waste of the public money; and he would take the liberty of stating briefly why he thought that they ought not to expend one shilling upon the purposes to which they were now called upon to give their assent. When there was a deficiency in the revenue of four millions and a half to meet the charges of the year, was that a time to propose such an extravagant grant? Were they to keep the members of the royal family wallowing in wealth, at a time when so many thousands were dying for want of food? Were they to take the beds from under those miserable wretches by warrants of distress, in order to make up an enormous sum to be wasted in heartless expense, under the name of the necessary grandeur of royalty? He had taken the trouble to look over the Civil List, and ho found that it amounted last year to the enormous sum of 1,057,000l. Of that unnecessary waste, 364,000l. were paid for pensions, and no less than 246,000l. to defray the expenses of the junior branches of the royal family, which would be increased to 255,000l. by the addition of the 9,000l. which they were now about to grant. If the duke of Clarence had any family, or was placed in a condition to require such sums, there might be an apology for the present addition to his income; but he had already a yearly grant of above 29,000l. His family received every year 2,5007. from the 4 per cent fund; and all that was exclusive of his professional income, which amounted to 1,000l. a-year." It was not altogether the magnitude of the sum of 9,000l. to which he objected it was the insult which such a grant, at the present time, conveyed to the feelings of every man in the country who was suffering from distress. It was the sure way to make the heir presumptive unpopular; and ministers could not have invented any course more likely to place him at variance with public opinion. The hon. member, after ridiculing the idea of such a sum as 9,0001. being required for those charitable purposes, which the chancellor of the Exchequer had enlarged upon, concluded by moving, as an amendment, which he declared no man could fulfil his duty without supporting "That, taking into consideration the present distressed state of the shipping, manufacturing, and commercial interests; the distressed state of the working classes, and the alarming deficiency in the public revenue, this House does not deem it expedient to add to the burthens of the people, by increasing the pension of his royal highness the duke of Clarence, who already enjoys a clear income from the Consolidated Fund, of 29,5007. per annum, exclusive of his professional income." stood in that altered situation, and had succeeded to those important relations to the Throne, which called for the support of every man who valued the welfare of the illustrious family, of which this royal highness was a member, or the dignity and honour of the Crown, to which he was so near in point of succession.One word as to what the hon. member for Aberdeen had said about the insult to the sufferings of the country, which would be conveyed by this addition of 9,000l. a year to the duke of Clarence's income. In la country, where the public expenditure amounted to about sixty millions annually where about half that sum was made applicable yearly to the payment of the public debt-where, during the last war, no less than thirteen millions, and, in the last year only, as much as five millions had been appropriated for a sinking fund, to prop up a particular interest in such a country, to talk of the grant of 9,0007: a year to a man in his royal highness's situation, was neither more nor less than a gross delusion upon the public. He must also object to this being considered as a question of monarchy. As to the United States of America, and the expenses of their government and executive Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, he anticipated for the vote he was about to give the same severe chastisement from the hon. member for Aberdeen, which he had if the superior advantages of their ins that night, and on a former evening, given to those who had brought forward the proposition now before the House. That hon. gentleman had characterized it in very unmeasured terms: he had charged ith with profligacy, extortion, and insult. He had gone so far, even, as to declare it injurious to the shipping and manufacturing interests. Now, for his own part, he must say, that a more exaggerated statement he had never heard, nor had he ever listened to a more unnecessary display of vehement oratory. For the resolution itself, taking it independently of all exaggeration and colouring, it did strike him as being a very fair and natural proposition to be made on the part of his majesty's government, from the first moment that his royal highness succeeded to the station which he at present occupied. It had been asked, in what consisted the difference of station which his royal highness had so experienced? But he believed, that the common sense of every mau in that House must instantly supply the answer to such a question; and he, for one, required no official reply upon the matter. His royal highness now stitutions were to be made a question, as contrasted with those of the British monarchy, he did trust that that question at least would not be raised upon this grant of 9,000l. a year to the presumptive heir to the Crown. If such a question was to be introduced for discussion in that House, he hoped that, among all the aggravated topics which could be brought forward with the view of enforcing the preferable nature of a republic as contrasted with a monarchy, the admiration of the national economy attaching to the former would never cause it to be gravely discussed there, whether it would be improper to make such an allowance as that proposed in favour of his royal highness, when his altered and very peculiar station was considered. Believing, as he did, that that station had become most materially altered and that his royal highness was entitled to have such an addition made to his income, he should cheerfully support the vote. In doing so, he was tempted to observe, that there was no man in that House who, during a long political existence, had shewn a more perfect disregard of adúlation, addressed either to men in power or to princes, than himself. He was confident, therefore, that his support of this resolution would be attributed solely to that abstract view of its reasonableness and propriety, which he most conscientiously entertained; and, entertaining, had avowed a duty which he did not hesitate to perform, although its execution placed him under the painful necessity of recording his dissent, on this occasion, from some of those hon. friends in that House with whom he was in the habit, upon almost all other occasions, of voting. Mr. Ridley Colborne deplored the present opposition to the grant, and declared that, whatever might have been the opinion of the honourable members at first, such continued and obstinate resistance would make the offer of the money come as ungraciously from the House, as its acceptance must be rendered painful to the illustrious individual for whom it was intended. Lord Leveson Gower did not think it necessary to trouble the House with any explanation of his reasons for supporting the grant after the question had been so fairly and ably stated by the knight of Kerry. In every expression which had fallen from that right hon. gentleman he most fully concurred; but he wished to say a few words upon the line of argument taken by the hon. member for Aberdeen. That hon. member had endeavoured to take the course which he thought best calculated to enlist upon his side the passions of the people, and to make the grant of any sum to the duke of Clarence a matter of obloquy in the eyes of a great portion of the distressed. There was, however, no period at which the hon. member might not be able to find the same reasons for opposing any, even a necessary, matter of public expenditure; and if it might be objected to such an argument, that the present grant was an unnecessary piece of expenditure, then he would answer, that the very same would be said of the most necessary. The same argument might be applied in the same manner to even the accumulation of large private fortunes; but he conceived that such appeals to the passions instead of the reasons of men were not to be justified upon any sound principles of polieysano ads CEEMM bs Mr. Hume's Amendment was negatived, and leave was then given to bring in the bill.rowoq mi asm of foilo bozebi no ARMY ESTIMATES.] The House hav ing resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Army Estimates were referred, Zanzib mont Lord Palmerston said, that the sestie mates of the present year differed very little, either in the number of men or the amount of the expenditure, from those of last year; but, as there were some variations in the details, it might be necessary for him to explain them shortly to the House. The total number of mensein the estimate of last year was eighty-six thou sand, seven hundred and sixty-four. The number of the present year was eighty-six thousand, eight hundred and three, making an increase of thirty-nine men, for the service of the present year. The charge for the last year was 6,602,1357 The charge for the present year was 6,601,9487. The noble lord, after enumerating several minor changes and charges, in a very low tone, observed, that there was a saving from a reduction in the Levy-moneys to 51. 4s.; but that the expense of the staff was increased 15,000l., from the nature of the armament sent to Portugal. In the War-office there would be found a reduction of 5,000l., and several of the unsettled accounts, as he anticipated last year, had been arranged. The noble lord spoke in such a hurried and suppressed tone, that it was almost impossible to hear what he said. As far as we could under+ stand the noble lord, he observed, that the third class of the estimates included the expenses of the civil departments, or public offices, connected with the army: these amounted to 111,655l. 7s. 1d. The fourth charge was that of medicines, and surgical materials for the land forces, together with certain hospital contingencies, which, in the whole, amounted to 13,9107.914s. 6d. for England, and 3,8671. for Ireland. In both, 17,7771. 14s. 6d. The expenses of the Royal Military College were estimated at 13,2291. 3s. 7d. He would now state that the amount of the pay of general officers was 148,2261. 7s. 6d. which show ed a diminution upon the estimates of last year of 8631. The whole pay of retired officers was 118,000l., and the half-pay and military allowances to reduced and retired officers was 770,0447 12s.16di The charge for in-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital was 33,7261. 19s. 4d., which was a diminution upon the estimate of last year of 9407. The out-pensions of Chelsed Hospital would amount, in the present از year, to 1,312,9171. 10s. 11d., which was an increase of 27,000l. upon the estimate of the preceding year. This arose from the disbanding of certain troops, otherwise there would have been a saving of 23,000l. But the addition made to the Chelsea pensions was not the only cause of the increase of the present estimates over those of last year. There was, besides, a small excess, arising from a new class of pensions. The total of the estimate for the Military Asylum was 28,0467. 17s., which showed an increase over the estimate of last year of 2,500l. This did not arise from any additional establishment, or from any permanent charge whatever. It was found necessary, this year, to make an addition to the building. The expense was, therefore, merely temporary, and could not be taken as any precedent of an item in a future estimate. The account of Widows' Pensions amounted to 135,868. 16s. 8d., which was a diminution, when compared with that of 1826, of 6,1717. The Compassionate List for the present year amounted to 193,0637. 13s. 9d., which showed an increase over that of the last year. The Exchequer fees remained the same. The expenses of the Veteran Battalions were 86,8037., being an increase of 23,4971., and a diminution of 23,6701. over the expenses of the year 1826. The balance was, consequently, 1747. in favour of the present year. The noble lord then moved, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding eighty-seven thousand, eight hundred and fifty-nine men (exclusive of the men belonging to the Regiments employed in the Territorial Possessions of the East India Company), Commissioned and Non-commissioned Officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 25th Dec. 1826, to the 24th Dec. 1827, inclusive." Colonel Davies said, that considering the importance of the question under discussion, he regretted that the tone in which the noble lord had spoken, and the noise made by hon. gentlemen in leaving the House, had rendered it hardly possible for him to hear what the noble lord had said. He would confess, that it was with no little surprise that he viewed the conduct of those gentlemen by whom he was generally surrounded. When the question before the House merely concerned a common job, such as the unnecessary appointment of a junior lord of the Admiralty, which ; might involve the waste of 1,000l. a-year; or the job of appointing a second postmaster-general, which might cost about 2,000l. a-year; or even a vote of an additional allowance to a prince of the blood royal-then, indeed, he saw a race between gentlemen in their efforts to oppose ministers. This appeared to be deemed by them sufficient to patch up their reputations for leaving their posts when questions of vital importance, like the present, were to be settled. This might, perhaps, succeed for them within the walls of that House but it would not serve their purpose out of doors. There the mode of estimating parliamentary conduct was different. On all occasions he had done his utmost to reduce the public expenditure within reasonable and honest bounds. With respect to the grant to the duke of Clarence, he felt that he had given his vote conscientiously. Before the Committee came to its decision upon the question submitted to it, he would wish to draw the attention of members to the extravagance of the scale of the public expenditure, and to the excess of the present estimates over those of preceding years. To whatever period he referred, the comparison would be to the disadvantage of ministers. He would not travel so far back as the year 1792, that epoch to which hon. gentlemen were so fond of referring, and to which they could so often refer with strict propriety-in illustrating the extravagant career of government. He would content himself with a retrospect to a period when the House of Commons contained most of the gentlemen who sat in the present parliament. He would refer to the year 1822, and would draw a comparison between the public expenses then, and the amount of them at the present moment. The comparison would surprise those who were not in parliament at the former period. The four great branches of expenditure to which he would call the attention of the House were--the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and the Miscellaneous Service. The amount of these was 14,606,000l. in the year 1822. For the year ending the 5th Jan., 1827, the same four branches of service amounted to 19,344,000l., being an increasetof 4,738,0007. He would only ask those gentlemen who were so loud in their professions of public spirit, to have the goodness to do their duty when these estimates were voted. If they would but attend in |