their places, the country might be richer The present system was, therefore, eviby nearly five millions per annum. He dently better than that which formerly objected strongly to many of the items in existed. With reference to the organizathe present estimates. There was a charge tion of the far from the present army, So of 60,0007. for levy money of fifteen plan of recruiting having impaired that thousand men. The usual number of organization, or in any respect diminished rank and file in the army was seventy-four its efficiency, it had eminently tended to thousand, five hundred. Therefore, fifteen raise the force in every point of service. thousand men were one fifth of the whole The strength of a battalion of the line on army. Although the duration of a soldier's foreign service was six hundred men. life, from the casualties of battle, foreign Formerly, a regiment consisted of ten service, and hard duty, was not equal to companies or eight; all of which went on that of a civilian, he could assert, that it service, leaving only the skeleton of one was a great deal more, upon an average, company to recruit. Each regiment now than five years. Never was there so ex- consisted of ten companies, six of which travagant a demand made upon this head were sent on service, the remaining four of expenditure. In 1823, the number of companies being left at home to recruit. recruits raised was only eleven thousand. These companies disciplined the young He observed in the estimates a charge of soldiers, and sent them from time to time 28,0007. for raising only four companies. to the battalions abroad. It was a literal Each recruit must, therefore, have cost fact, that when a comparison had been the country no less than 207. before he made between regiments consisting of the could be reckoned fit for service. He be- same number of men, those which had lieved that the newly adopted system of re- only six companies abroad, and recruited cruiting by whole companies, tended much under the present system, were found to to destroy the efficiency of the army, and be stronger and more efficient than the many whom he had consulted upon the regiments with ten companies, upon the subject concurred with him in the opinion. former system of recruiting. The reason 6 Lord Palmerston said, that the gallant was evident: the four companies at home member was mistaken with respect to the were a better engine for recruiting and number of recruits. Of the fifteen thou-keeping up the undisturbed organization sand men, four thousand were to supply and numbers of the regiment, than the an additional force, and the number in- skeleton companies which were formerly tended to answer the wear and casualties used for raising men. The garrisons of the service was only eleven thousand. abroad were much more effective now Taking deaths, desertions, and discharges, than formerly. The new recruiting sysinto consideration, it would be by not tem had, however, another material object means more than would probably be in view. When a whole regiment went wanted. With reference to the system abroad, if officers became unable to conof recruiting, as far as his experience tinue in active service, they were sent went, he could positively assert that the home on leave. This indulgence was, of present system was eminently adapted to course, limited; and when their leave exensure the efficiency of the service. In pired, if the state of their health prevented the first place, by the present system of their returning to their regiments, and rerecruiting, there was no longer a multi- assuming active duties, they were of netude of officers that used to be detached cessity compelled to retire on half-pay. from their regiments, wasting their time, Upon the present system, the officer came to the loss and disadvantage of the public. home, not merely upon leave of absence. Instead of nine hundred officers so de- If his health did oblige him to quit active tached by the old practice, there were duty, he did not come home upon leave now not even one hundred. By the pre- of absence, nor were his services lost to sent system, no regiment could detach the public. He joined his dépôt, and more than one officer at a time, and no there performed that comparatively easy officer so detached could be absent from duty which the state of his health perhis regiment more than two years. The mitted. Dépôts, which consisted of raw absent officer was not allowed to have recruits, could not certainly be so available under his command a single man belong as entire regiments; but they did perform ing to his own regiment; so that the a share of duty, and of a description neregiment was left efficient and complete,cessary to the service.

Mr. Hume said, he would leave it to the comprehension of military men, how regiments of six hundred men could be more efficient than regiments of eight hundred. From what he heard, a very different account could be given of this subject. Leaving such paradoxes, he would ask, was it economical to have fifty field officers, two hundred and four captains, four hundred and eight subalterns and staff officers employed recruiting? Ministers were in the habit of talking of the preference of one system over another; they compared them in their different points, and vaunted of the superiority of recent plans. The only point which they never took into consideration was, what appeared to him to be the most essential to consider; namely, the expense. Improvements, however obvious, might be acquired at too great a cost. By the present practice, the War Department left a staff at home, with a few companies, to recruit; and, as far as he could learn, the expense of the system was well deserving of attention. So far from being economical, it was most extravagant.

military establishments got down to sixtyeight thousand eight hundred and three men. A sinking fund was provided, which, it was said, would, at the end of ten years, reduce eighty millions. Almost every body who heard him must remember the confidence with which ministers spoke of the reduction of the debt to that amount. It was considered as nothing short of faction to dispute their calculations, or to doubt their sincerity. They asserted, and repeated the assertion, that every establishment of the army should be kept down to the scale which the petition to the Crown had induced them to adopt. What had been the result? In five years, instead of a reduction by this sinking fund, of thirty-five or forty millions, every shilling of that sinking fund was wanted for the current expenses, and the country, at this moment, was more in debt. After this pledge of ministers, they had contrived to bring the army to eightysix, instead of sixty-six, thousand. There had been an unnecessary and wanton increase of twenty thousand men, after ministers had pretended to sympathize in the sufferings of the people, and had pledged themselves that every possible

As to the estimates before the House, they were a mere farce: they were of no

paper; they did not bind ministers, they did not bind the noble lord, as to what number of men should be kept up, or as to what expense should be incurred. He

The question being then put upon the resolution, "That eighty-seven thousand three hundred and fifty-nine men be pro-attention should be given to economy. vided for the Military Service in the present year," Mr. Hume said, that he, for one, ob-value whatever they were merely waste jected in the strongest manner to the great amount of the army. He objected to it in a constitutional sense; he objected to it in point of expense; and because he did not think it necessary to the exigen-held in his hand a return, by which the cies of the country. He knew that he House would see how useless it was to was not solitary in entertaining these ob- vote an estimate of 6,401,0007.,-the jections. As the House had pledged itself amount of the estimate of last year, when to support the expedition to Portugal, to the scale of disbursements was 8,000,000l., put matters to rights there, he did not being an increase of 1,600,000l. What mean, at the present moment, to do more could be the use of voting this estimate than to protest against the number of our or that estimate, when, without the auforces. He would, however, beg leave to thority of parliament, ministers exceeded state to the House, that when parliament the vote to the extent which he had had recently petitioned the Crown to stated? Independently of other circumreduce the public establishments, the stances, let the House consider where the answer from the Crown was, that all pos- government could find money to continue sible economy should be observed, with a in such a course, unless they resorted to view to recruit the finances and to pay off the expedient of raising loans. Did it a portion of the public debt. To this not behove the government, in this period ministers had made the Crown pledge of peace, to husband the resources of the itself to the country. Now, it was cu- country? Was not this the honest policy rious to see whether ministers had so far of a government in a period of peace? regarded the honour of the Crown as to How much more did it behove them to do act up to this pledge. When that public so in a country in which every interest promise was given to the country, the I was labouring under the most dreadful

3

Mr. V. Fitzgerald denied the assertion of the gallant colonel opposite, that the expenditure of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous estimates was between four and five millions more in the last year than in the year 1822. Instead of VOL. XVI.

instead of a postponement of payments, an acceleration of them was the consequence. Without any increase of actual expense, therefore, larger payments were made than, under different circumstances, would have been made, between the 1st of January, 1826, and the 1st of January, 1827. The figures which had been read by his right hon. friend near him were the best criterion of the actual expenditure of a single year; and not the paper to which the hon. member for Aberdeen adverted, which was a cash account; and the cash accounts would not afford a just notion of the expense, unless taken for a succession of years. He repeated, that it was strange the hon. gentleman should have fallen into this mistake after the clear explanation of the chancellor of the Exchequer.

and expenditure, as detailed in the balance-sheet, the truth must be ascertained. He was certainly aware, that in a series of years, the cash account could not be larger than the sums in the Appropriation acts; but still the best way, in his opinion, was to ascertain by the balance-sheet, which was a test more within compass; whereas any inference from the Appropriation acts, in consequence of their extent, must be less conclusive.

The resolution was agreed to. On the resolution, "That 111,6551. be granted for defraying the charge of the Allowances to the principal Officers of the several Departments in Great Britain and Ireland, their Deputies, Clerks, and contingent Expenses, for the year 1827,"

paid to individuals superannuated from the noble lord's own office. The House would do well to inquire in what manner these retirements and superannuations took place. Was the head of an office to turn out whom he pleased, and make room for whom he pleased, without caring to what extent the public were burthened by the operation? He should be glad to hear from the noble lord on what ground the Deputy-secretary at War had retired since last year. What was the amount of his retiring pension; and on what principle was it granted?

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Mr. Hume observed, that on reading Colonel Davies observed, that there the items of this branch of expenditure, ought to be some explanatory appendix and comparing them with those of former to the papers, to show what the fact was, years, it appeared to him that every thing and to prevent the occurrence of errors. was not going on right. Among other Mr. Maberly observed, that if he un-charges, there was the sum of 20,000!. derstood the hon. Secretary rightly, the balance-sheet, from which his hon. friend had read, was only a cash account, showing the receipts and payments that had taken place at the Exchequer; and that it ought not to be dealt with as an accurate account of the expenditure, because it might contain under the head of disbursements larger sums than parliament had voted for the year. But how did the chancellor of the Exchequer make his annual statements but from this balancesheet? In fact, any other account was delusive, because this was the cash account. They all knew what difficulty there had been to procure the introduction of this balance-sheet. Even now the balance-sheet was not what it ought to be. In some respects it was unintelligible. It purported to be an account of the receipt and expenditure at the Exchequer; whereas it contained a number of details respecting the funded and unfunded debt. These were things which ought to be separated. If government advanced a large sum, only a part of which was repaid, that merely made a difference in our debt, and had nothing to do with the receipt and expenditure. On examining this balancesheet it appeared, that, instead of a balance in our favour of 1,700,000l., there was a deficiency of 4,500,000l. It was therefore inexpedient that the House should depend on the estimates. They might or might not be correct. But by the receipt

Lord Palmerston said, that when the hon. gentleman compared the expense of this branch of service with its expense in former years, it would be well if he would also look at its increased efficiency, and at the superior despatch and accuracy with which the business to which it related was performed. A great part of the expense was not optional, but resulted from the increased demands made by parliament for information on military subjects. Nevertheless, considerable reduction had taken place. In 1814, the annual charge for the Public Departments was 253,000; at present, in consequence of the reduce tions to which he had adverted, it was only 111,6551. In answer to the hon. gentleman's questions, he would merely observe, that when a department, which had been raised to a large establishment in consequence of a large increase of business, was reduced

Mr. Hume thought, notwithstanding the explanation given by the noble lord, that the charge of Deputy-secretary to the country was extravagant. There was a retiring salary of 1,800l. to Mr. Moore, to Mr. Merry 2,500l., to the present Deputysecretary 2,000l., so that the charge to the country for the situation of Deputysecretary for the War Department was above 6,000l. The length of service of the late Deputy-secretary he was prepared to admit; but he understood that that gentleman was as fit to discharge his duties now as he was twenty years ago. He should be glad to know whether the retirement, of the late Deputy-secretary was a voluntary resignation, or whether it was in consequence of a suggestion to him to resign his office.

in consequence of a reduction of business, | At present he admitted that the charge of it was impossible to dismiss persons who Deputy-secretary was apparently a heavy had served long and faithfully without one; but in the course of time-in the some provision. That provision was regu- course of the next ten years for instancelated by a scale of allowance pointed out there would be found to be a considerable in an act of parliament. Of course, when saving to the country in this particular a reduction became necessary, it must be item of charge in the military estimates. left to the head of each departinent to select the individuals, who, in his opinion, might best be spared from his office. If that confidence could not be reposed in the head of an office, he was not fit for his situation. He must select those who could be spared with the least inconvenience to the public service. His duty then was, to report their names and services to the Treasury, by whom, and not by him, their retiring allowances were fixed. In the course of this and the last year, having wound up the arrears of his office, he had been enabled to dispense with twenty-two appointments. With respect to the late Deputy-secretary of War, he had served very nearly half a century. Next year he would have completed that term. A more assiduous and excellent public servant never existed. By the provisions of the act of parliament, the Treasury were empowered, if an individual had served fifty years, and there were other grounds for the proceeding, to grant him a retiring pension, equivalent to his salary; and the individual in question, by his age and his services, was fully qualified and entitled to enjoy the advantage. By the existing arrangement, he would have been entitled to the full salary at the end of fifty years' service; but a discretionary power was vested in the Lords of the Treasury to apportion a remuneration proportionate to the services of the officer. Accordingly, he had no hesitation in recommending the claims of the late Deputysecretary to the Lords of the Treasury, whose merits and whose services entitled him to the most favourable consideration. Upon the falling-in of the late Deputy-secretary's situation, it had been determined to reduce the salary of his successor to 2,000l. a year. By this arrangement 5001. a year was saved to the public. Then with respect to the principal clerk, whose salary had been 1,2001. a year; he would have been shortly entitled to a retiring salary; but by being placed in the situation of Deputy-secretary, the salary was saved to the public, and also the superannuated pension, to which he would have been otherwise entitled.

Lord Palmerston said, that the resignation of that gentleman was certainly a spontaneous one on his part. He had made the application to him (lord P.), and, in consideration of his merits and services, he had no hesitation in favourably recommending that application to the Lords of the Treasury. It was true that Mr. Merry had not been half a century in the particular situation from which he retired; but it was due to that gentleman to say, that on the retirement from the office of Mr. Moore in 1809, Mr. Merry sustained, and sustained voluntarily, a loss of 8007. ayear,which was to have accrued to him from a contract into which he had entered for certain supplies to the garrison of Gibraltar. Such a surrender on his part was deserving of the most favourable consideration, and gave Mr. Merry a claim to any indulgence that might be shown him; although, in his instance, the allowance that had been awarded to him was more a matter of right than of indulgence.

Mr. Hume was astonished, after it had been admitted that Mr. Merry had entered when not of age, and had not served the full time, that he should have been allowed to retire on the full pension. Instead of any serious attempt being made to reduce our establishments, there appeared to be a desire to increase them. Since 1822, the civil establishment particularly had gone