"Nos sævior armis "Pauperies urget miseramque ulciscitur." Erin. Let gentlemen go to the parishes of St. Giles's, St. Mary-la-bonne, and St. George, Hanover-square, and they would find the poor-rates doubled since last year, by the necessity of granting occasional relief to the starving Irish. He wished the people of England to know this. He wished his voice could reach throughout the land, that all might be taught to feel, that unless Catholic emancipation was granted, the population of this country would be ruined, that the poor-rates would be doubled, and that no diminution of taxation could possibly take place.

knowledge of the art of government; he | anxious to earn by the sweat of their ought to be able impartially to investigate brow. By thus preventing the exertions arguments on questions of state policy; of industry, he would bring down on this he ought to be always ready to enter into country the dreadful visitation of Irish a candid consideration of passing circum- poverty. Every steam-boat brought over stances; and, above all, he ought to feel ragged regiments of starving Irishmen. an anxious desire to promote the liberties Paupers innumerable were thrown on the of the country. Whether the duke of different parishes, ruining the comforts Wellington possessed these qualities, time and morals of the population of England. would determine. But it was said, that Thus it was, that Ireland was hourly the noble duke was sure to bring decision aggravating the burthen of the poor-rates into the cabinet. Now, he believed that of this country-thus it was that she was military decision and political decision waging war against England. The rags were two very different things. That the of Ireland were her resources-the poverty duke of Wellington had displayed military of Ireland was her sharp sword-her decision could not be doubted, otherwise pauper multitudes formed her avenging he could not have covered himself and his army:country with glory, as he had done. But, where was his political decision? What was his conduct on the corn-bill last year? In the first instance, he supported it; and he afterwards defeated it, by throwing out the principal clause. Let the House look to the treaty of Petersburgh. A more puerile, weak, and indecisive document than the noble duke's protocol never existed. Again, let the House look at the king's Speech. Was that, he asked, a specimen of decision? Some persons thought that that Speech indicated a desire of adhesion to the treaty of July last; but others were of opinion, that it was framed with a cautious design to back out of that treaty. Then the epithet 64 untoward," which occurred in that Speech, and which had been so much talked of, appeared to him to be extremely equivocal. It" hints a fault, and hesitates dislike." It was any thing but decisive. Not only was that epithet an awkward, but an unjust one. So far from the battle of Navarino being an "untoward" event, he considered it as a most toward event. If pacification should be established, it would be very much owing to the victory of Navarino. It might be supposed, after what he had said, that he looked upon the duke of Wellington's military education, and his military life, as not fitting him for the situation of prime minister. But he had another powerful objection. The noble duke was an anti-Catholic, and would use his influence to prevent Catholic emancipation. By so doing, he would prevent capital from flowing into Ireland by so doing, he would prevent the employment of its active and industrious population-by so doing, he would deprive them of the food which they were

Sir J. Newport said, that as the gallant general had gone through, and commented upon, the whole of the petition, he deemed it necessary to offer a few words. He did not quarrel with the panegyric which the gallant general had pronounced on the duke of Wellington: he himself admired, as much as any man, the great military talents of that distinguished personage. But he would ask, did the duke of Wellington's naval renown entitle him to general confidence as a civil minister? Military and political abilities were distinct things, and were very seldom united. An hon. baronet had asked, whether any thing had occurred since last year to make this show of petitions necessary fact was, that they grew out of the citcumstance of that House not having done that act of justice, without which they would constantly be receiving petitions from Ireland. And God forbid that it should be otherwise! for if the people did not, by petitioning, show that they had confidence in that House, it would be the most fatal day that was ever known for

The

causes.

this country. It was said, that the misery claims of the Catholics. If such a system of Ireland arose, not from the refusal of of intimidation was continued, he feared Catholic emancipation, but from other there would be few members, who, like

He, however, thought it might all his gallant friend, would come forward and be traced to that source--the prevailing give an unbiassed vote on this question. system of exclusion : and he was perfectly The friends of the Catholics ought theresure, that, until equal rights were extended fore to tell this unconstitutional body, that to all the people of Ireland, tranquillity they were taking steps destructive to their would not be established in that country, cause. These frightful denunciations, it nor could there be safety and security for should be observed, did not come from a the British empire. This measure could powerless body, but from those who might not immediately remove all those evils be said to have the rule of Ireland. They which had been the growth of centuries ; had denounced all those who should supbut he would say, that if they were to be port an administration, at the head of removed, the measure to effect that object which was the duke of Wellington; or must be founded on this basis, or the any administration formed on similar relief would be inefficient. From day to principles. This was highly unconstiday, the people of Ireland were making tutional, and he trusted that parliament war—in the only way in which they could would not legislate on this question, until make war—on this country, by throwing these denunciations were withdrawn. Havan immense burthen upon its finances. ing named the duke of Wellington, he During a long course of years, he had thought he could not do better than say, attentively considered this subject, and he that he entertained the highest confidence was more and more convinced, that there that his administration would be fraught would be no tranquillity for Ireland, or with signal advantages to his country. safety for the British empire, until this act Whatever the tone of his majesty's Speech of strict justice was done.

might have been—and he did not approve Sir T. Lethbridge said, that his gallant of the whole of it—he felt confident that friend who had introduced the petition, had the honour, dignity, and fair fame of the stated, in a plain and manly manner, the British character would be better preserved reason why he dissented from the prayer of it. by the policy which the duke of WellingThe House ought to thank him for the course ton would pursue, than by that which had which he had taken, especially as he was been adopted by the late short-lived admione of the persons denounced by a self- nistration, which had been described by elected and unconstitutional body. That the hon. baronet, the member for Westbody had gone to such a length as had minster (sir F. Burdett), as having tumbled never been pursued by any other set of to pieces in consequence of its own diffipersons. The Catholic Association had dence; but which, he thought, had assumed, contrary to law, all the power tumbled to pieces from its own weakness and authority of a legislative body. It and imbecility. That administration had not only commanded the population of not lived long enough to do much mischief; every parish in Ireland, but it also com- but he certainly never recollected one so manded the pockets of that population. inefficient and imbecile. The great statesThe Association had long been in the ha- man now no more could not, as I then bit of receiving a weekly suin, called “the predicted, with all his foresight and tact, Rent.” For what that money was collected, have kept together, for two years, such a and who had the authority of disposing of mass of heterogeneous materials. If his it, did not clearly appear. But the time, great talents could not effect that object, he believed, was not far distant, when where was there any one in the late admithose aums of money would be appro- nistration capable of achieving it? The priated in a way which that House and result had proved the truth of the prothe country would not readily submit to. phecies uttered in that House during the Those who supported the claims of the last session. Catholics in that House, if they had any Mr. Spring Rice observed, that the hon. love for consistency, and for the constitu- member for Somersetshire was undoubtedly tion, ought to take their stand now, and one of the most downright, straightforward declare, that until this illegal body was opponents of Catholic emancipation; so put down, and prevented from bullying much so, that he would consider the hon. the empire, they would not press the baronet as the embodied spirit of the whole of those who were hostile to the Catholic | Webb Hall. In point of law, he could claims, and, thanking him for his candour, not see the difference between the two he would deal with him and his opinions meetings.--He hoped that neither of the with the utmost possible respect. He hon. members would suppose that he was could not, however, carry his notion of the advocate of the Association. He derespect for him and for the gallant general precated it from the bottom of his heart. so far, as to give them credit for being It was pregnant with danger; it tended to very profound judges of the law; and yet the separation of the countries; it progreat part of the speeches of the gallant duced disturbance, and was calculated to general and of the hon. member had gone do mischief, in every possible way. This to that point—that a certain association in was no new language of his. He had held Ireland was an illegal association, and that the same language when that absurd act so long as it existed, the House ought to was in progress, which, from the nature of refuse the claims of the Roman Catholics. their observations, the gallant general and There were, however, stronger opinions on the hon. baronet seem to wish to have rethe case, than either that of the gallant newed. But, if the government attempted general or of the hon. baronet-opinions to re-enact it, he believed they would find which had been given within the last two it difficult to carry their purpose into efyears. The first witness he would call fect. He wished to put down the Assoto prove the legality of this Association ciation; he wished to put down agitators ; was the present Secretary of State for the he wished to put down demagogues, wheHome Department. He had been in that ther agricultural in Palace-yard, or Roman situation for two years, and during that Catholic in Dublin. But, could the Assotime, he was in constant connexion with ciation be put down by legal enactments ? Ireland; and assuredly, if that Association The experiment was tried, and it had was illegal, it was the duty of that right failed. Two of the wisest lawyers had hon. gentleman to put it down, and to framed an act, which it was hoped would punish the violators of the law. His next throw a net over the Association, and witness was the late lord chancellor Man- hold it in its iron grasp for ever. That ners. Would that learned lord, living in engine, however, proved useless; and, if Dublin, and reading the reports of the another were forged, it would also be proceedings of the Association daily broken to shatters. They could not effect would he, if it had been illegal, have sanc- their object, unless by the prohibition of tioned it by his tacit acquiescence? The reading, writing, meeting, speaking, and argument, then, of the gallant general and thinking. But, if they went ever so far, of the hon. baronet was not sustained there would still be that left which their either by law or facts. He must say this, in power could not reach—they could not support of what was called the Protestant prohibit thinking; and if they left the government, who had suffered the Associa- feeling deep and sore; if they left the tion to exist ; and he must give his distinct heart ulcerated; he must be a man of litand decided negative to what was advanced tle judgment, he could little know the huon the other side. In what was it illegal ? man mind, he could have reflected or felt In giving instructions to their representa- little himself, who did not perceive, that tives? Was that illegal ? Was it main such a state of things was full of danger to tained that the Catholics could not meet the state.-It had been suggested, that to discuss their grievances without a breach there had been a disinclination on the of the law? The hon. baronet, when the part of the friends of the Catholic quesCorn-laws and agricultural distress were tion to press it during the present session. the topics of the day, brought up in- This charge was, as regarded himself and numerable petitions, formed committees, his friends, entirely void of foundation; and disseminated documents, on that sub- and they would be unworthy of their seats ject. The difference between the two pro- in that House, if it were not so.

He ceedings consisted merely in the nature of would appeal to the whole House, whethe object of each party. The hon. baro- ther the conduct of the party with which net had his comniittee sitting in Palace- he acted had not been uniformly the yard; the Roman Catholics had theirs sit- same, whether in office or out of it? His ting in Dublin. On the one hand there feeling upon the petition presented to the was Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Shiel; on House would have been exactly the same, the other, the hon, baronet and Mr. had he sat on the opposite benches when the peace

it appeared, as it was at present. The 'ciation, and then detail his reasons for question, indeed, of Catholic emancipation thinking that the prayer of the petition was too large, and too pressing a one, to ought to be rejected. He was not so be made a question of party. God forbid much surprised at the gallant officer, as that there should be a man in that House, at the sentiments expressed by the hon. far less a member connected with Ireland, baronet; who had said, that gentlemen on who could make any question in which presenting petitions, on that side of the

of that country was concerned, House, ought to abstain from any obserthe means of annoying an administration, vations upon their merits. The hon. baor acquiring for himself a transient popu. ; ronet's principle would go to the extent, larity! It had been urged by those who that no gentleman ought to present a opposed emancipation, that the remedy petition, unless he was an enemy to the for the evils of Ireland was employment. question; for he recommended gentlemen But, as long as this grievance remained in to imitate the example of the gallant issue, employment would produce fresh officer, which was neither more nor less opposition, and fresh resistance, rather than telling the House, that the prayer than peace. The Catholics might be si- of the petitions which they, presented lent, who were now oppressed and bound ought not to be granted. For himself, he down by poverty; but, the instant they was as satisfied as he was of his own exgained ease or riches, they would only istence, that there was no other means of swell the cry that clamoured for a restitu- restoring tranquillity to Ireland, than by tion of their rights. Reports were abroad, granting the relief sought for. He hoped that the present ministers were to be neu- that measures would soon be taken to tral upon the Catholic question---that the tranquillize that country, and that things administration had been formed upon the would not be suffered to go the length of understanding that they were to be so. furnishing an additional proof, that noThe question would shortly come before thing would be granted but in times of the House ; which would then have an op- panic and dismay. He was quite certain, portunity of judging whether this neu- that the prayer of the petition must ultitrality was real or affected. For himself, mately be granted ; and his wish, hope, he stood there disposed to serve the coun- and advice, were, that such concessions try as far as he could. He would support might be granted while it could be done the rew administration in any measures with honour, and that the government which he believed likely to tend to the would not wait for the day of terror and common advantage ; and after this decla- humiliation. ration, his voice, perhaps, would have Ordered to lie on the table. more weight in resisting those of a contrary character, than if it were supposed CORPORATION AND Test Acrs.) Mr. that he had fixed himself in downright, W. Smith presented a petition from the uncompromising opposition.

He was

Roman Catholic inhabitants of Kilmain, ready to acquiesce in the convenience of praying for Catholic Emancipation. He making as few observations as possible on begged to embrace that opportunity of the presenting of petitions ; but if obser- disclaiming, on the part of the Dissenters vations were made on such occasions hos- of England, any junction with the Roman tile to the interests of the petitioners, their Catholics of Ireland ; and, at the same friends would be negligent of their duty if time, distinctly to disavow any hostility, they were not always prepared to meet on their part, to the claims of the latter. them.

An incautious and unauthorized paraMr. Fergusson said, he had been hither- graph had found its way into the newsto silent on the question of Catholic eman- papers, which had created the supposition cipation, and would not now have ad- now contradicted by him. For himself, dressed the House had not a scene been he had voted in favour of that question on exhibited, which, though he had not much every occasion; and he should continue experience as a member of that House, he to do so. But with respect to the Disbelieved to be rare in the discussion of senters, their case had been under consiany question. The House had heard the deration, and they had been advised by gallant officer, in presenting the petition, their friends to stand on a different ground repel the attacks which he conceived di- from the Catholics. The position in which rected against him by the Catholic Asso- the two parties were placed

i was, in fact,

the same. The grand argument of both he might say, that the proportion was as was, that no man's civil and religious li- great as ten to one. The creditor there berties ought to be kept separate ; yet as, had no power to arrest his debtor, until a owing to circumstances, the case of the verdict had been obtained before a judge, Dissenters was peculiar, it was thought and until the debt had been proved to be due. better that they should keep apart from In England, on the contrary, a person of the Catholics. But, whether carried sepa- the worst character was allowed to depose rately or in union, it was his settled opi- to a debt on oath, against any individual nion, that the success of both was essential whom he might think proper to select, to the safety and well-being of the state. with the exception of members of parliaOrdered to lie on the table.

ment and peers. Every man, he thought,

must be anxious to put down a species of Mr. Denison presented a similar peti- oppression, which placed a power in hands tion from Clapham. One third of the where it had been so much abused. The subscribers thereto were, he said, members practice in England, in many respects, of the church of England, and amongst was very contradictory. Men were roused them was a clergyman of that church. in an instant if a justice of peace, by misThe hon. member for Norwich had stated, take, or for trespass, imprisoned a man, if that the Dissenters were unwilling to make it were only for a few hours. The daily common cause with the Catholics. Whe-press, as it ought to do, instantly raised ther they were right or wrong in so doing, an outcry against the offender, holding he would not give an opinion; but he was him up to public notice; yet, all this quite sure that the whole kingdom ought time, thousands were deprived of their to unite hand and heart, in endeavouring liberty, and thrown into prison, without to obtain a repeal of the Test and Corpo- any inquiry. He therefore said, that the ration acts, and of all penal restrictions whole system of mesne process, as it upon religious liberty. There could be was called, was most harassing, and

. neither tranquillity in Ireland nor safety that it was a blot on the country. The to England until the point was carried; subject ought to be protected against such and he entirely agreed with the hon. mem- a grievous hardship; and as payment could ber who had said, that the House should not be obtained by confining the body grant it while it would be received as a within the bare walls of a prison, recourse boon, instead of waiting until it should should be had to the effects of the debtor. be extorted from them in a moment of Acts of the greatest cruelty and injustice danger.

were constantly committed in consequence Ordered to lie on the table.

of this law. Thousands of individuals

were yearly arrested; some out of spite ; ARRESTS FOR DEBT ON MESNE PRO- others from having had a quarrel with CESS.) Mr. Hume said, that he had, last their creditor; and all without the least session, submitted to the House several mo- inquiry, as to the character of the inditions on the subject of the Law of Arrest. vidual upon whose simple oath they were In consequence of the magnitude of the committed, first into the hands of a sheriff's evil which arose to individuals by their officer, and then to the cells of a prison. being deprived of their liberty for debt, he In Scotland, such could not take place; had then submitted two bills, for the pur- and even in some of the English colonies pose of doing away with arrest altogether, abroad, no such proceeding was recogand giving to the creditor a claim on the nised. In Canada, a man could not be property of the debtor. He had not found- arrested, unless a magistrate was satisfied ed those bills on any vague or theoretical on oath that he was about to leave the idea, as had been insinuated, but on the country, and then he was only called on to custom and practice that had existed for give security that he would not leave the centuries in Scotland and in other coun- country. In France, Spain, Holland, and tries; where, so far from any danger or most of the continental states, the laws inconvenience having arisen from such a were more favourable for the debtor, and course, it had been found to produce a generally counteracted the malice or remost beneficial effect. The result had venge of the creditor. Last session he proved, that there was much more of debt had proposed a remedy, which was objectrecovered in Scotland than in England, ed to by the Secretary of State for the from those who were insolvent: he believed Home Department, now absent from the