best judge; but, at the same time, nothing Mr. Herries said, that perhaps the could alter his (Mr. Herries) personal con- House would allow him to re-state a fact, viction, founded upon all that he knew of which he apprehended the hon. member the facts, that the trifling circumstance of had not distinctly heard. He had stated, the difference between his right hon.friend, on a preceding evening, not that which the Secretary for the Colonies, and himself the hon. member imputed to him, but that -trifling, as compared with other matters, he had heard, on that night, for the first and, he repeated, most trifling, because he time, that the right hon. Secretary for the had been ready to settle it in the most Colonies had resigned on the 29th of Deamicable way, by his own resignation-by cember : and he had added a complaint, the sacrifice, if there was to be any sacrifice, that he had not been informed of that fact, of himself,—that a difference so easily until the 5th of January. Two morning disposed of never could be, and never had papers, which had reported his speech upon been, the true and operative cause of the that evening, distinctly confirmed his predissolution of the late government. Other sent representation of that which he had causes, and far more important ones, had said. He desired to repeat that represenbeen pressing—that was the truth—with tation; and if the hon, member still an embarrassing weight upon the adminis- doubted its accuracy, he might refer to the tration ; and he did believe, that no argu- reports which he had alluded to; but which ments would ever convince impartial it was not possible for him, in his own persons, who took the trouble to advert to justification, to produce. all the facts, that so trifling a circumstance Lord Milton thought that the House was as was alleged, had been the cause of so bound to take the fact to be as the right important a catastrophe. hon. gentleman had stated it. There could Mr. T. Duncombe said, that his only be no doubt but that he must be best able excuse for intruding upon the House was, to decide that which he himself had said, the speech which had just been made by independent of the authority alluded to. the right hon. gentleman; and he confessed, But he would put that question entirely so far from taking it as an explanation, aside; for that which the right hon. gentlethat he had never heard any address from man had just stated to the House seemed an hon. member that surprised him more. to him to be full of most important matIf his senses, on a preceding evening, had ter. The right hon. gentleman, on a prenot entirely failed him, he had heard the ceding evening, had imputed a design-an right hon. gentleman say, that it was then, intention he did not know whether the for the first time, that he had heard of the right hon. gentleman bad used the word resignation of the right hon. Secretary for “plot,” but certainly he said a design, and , the Colonies. Nay, the right hon. gentle an intention--to break up the ministry, man had repeated the expression : he had and that his own threatened resignation used it twice. This was not only his im- had only been made a pretence for dissolve pression, but that of several other members ing it. The right hon. gentleman bad adaround him; and he was astonished to find ded, “I know it." Now, he would not the right hon. gentleman, three days after have referred to that declaration, if the wards, giving the statement a totally differ- right hon. gentleman had not expressly, on ent construction. He expected, after this, the present evening, repeated to the House, that the right hon. gentleman would next by implication, that he was cognizant of explain away the well-remembered words that fact. If the right hon. gentleman was which he had uttered—“I know it.” One so-if he knew that a design had existed, expression was just as clear as the other. and knew the parties who were concerned With respect to the whole statement, in- in it,—he had that to state as to which all deed, of the right hon. gentleman, he came the explanations hitherto given to the to the same conclusion. He believed that House were not worth common attention the right hon. gentleman's object was to -were but as dust in the balance. All mystify the late transactions, so that they that had been stated was nothing—it was should be beyond all mortal understanding; valueless and inefficient-as compared with and, if such was his intent, he had com- the knowledge which the hon. gentleman, pletely succeeded. If any thing like expla- told the House he had behind. If he did nation was meant by the right hon. gentle- know of this design, he must know the man's speeches, he protested that he con- grounds of it, the objects of it, and the sidered them as a most exemplary failure. parties concerned in it; and on these heada 589 it was the bounden duty of the right hon into no more. On any subject relating to Mr. Brougham observed, that he had Mr. Brougham said, he had no doubt claimed no right to ask any question. that the right hon. gentleman was prepared He had put his inquiry, he thought, in a to answer the inquiries of his noble friend. way calculated to disarm all personal feelIndeed, it was impossible that he should ing. He had distinctly said, that he avoid doing so. But he wished to put one should not have thought of putting any other question to the right hon. gentleman, question, except for the explanation which without which his answer would neither be the right hon. gentleman had volunteered. complete nor satisfactory to the House. If If the right hon. gentleman intended to the right hon. gentleman had not, on a abide in silence now, it would have been preceding evening, come forward with a infinitely better, for his own sake, if he had gratuitous explanation of the charges never explained at all. which he thought affected his character as Mr. Wynn said, that if he had been sia public man and as a minister, he should lent upon a former night, it had only been have had no title to ask the right hon. because he felt that he could add nothing gentleman the question which he was about to that which had been stated by others. to put. But, as he had come forward, un- He had personally been a stranger to the called upon, to reply to a charge not cause which led to the dissolution of the suggested in the House-a charge that he late administration until the 9th of had gone and consulted with some one out January: but, after all that had passed, of the cabinet, and out of the circle of the he must say, that he thought further exadministration--as he had denied that planation from the right hon. gentleman charge, with an explicitness which had necessary. With respect to the allegation scarcely, even in the walls of that House, made by the right hon. gentleman, he been exceeded,—that being the case, he knew not upon what ground it rested; wished to know of the right hon. gentle and until he had further proofs of the exman, whether he rightly understood bim istence of a design to break up the governto have said, he hoped to be saved," ment, he must say, with all deference and “ upon his sacred honour as a gentle to the right hon. gentleman, that he could man," there was no foundation whatever not give credit to it. From that which he for the charges and insinuations which had knew of those with whom he had been been brought against him elsewhere, that united in office, and from his personal he had gone forth from the cabinet, in the knowledge of the noble lord at the head course of the struggles of the ministry, and of the late government, he did inost enmade a communication in a certain other tirely believe, that if there were grounds quarter--the highest quarter in the state : for the insinuations of the right hon. genassuming the right bon. gentleman to have tleman, as to intention or design of those said this, since it was not contradicted, intentions or designs, the noble lord and that he most solemnly denied having con- his colleagues in the ministry, from beginsulted any party out of the circle of the ning to end, had been entirely ignorant. cabinet on the imputed occasion-did the Mr. Sturges Bourne said, he entirely right hon. gentleman mean also to say, concurred in what had fallen from hís that no party out of the cabinet had ever right hon. friend. The circumstances consulted him ? He wished to know, which he had stated were those which, as whether the right hon. gentleman's denial far as his own knowledge extended, had led went to the fact of any individual having to the dissolution of the late administration. consulted with him, as well as of his having Nothing, indeed, could have come more consulted with any individual ? unexpectedly upon him than the dissoluMr. Herries said, that he did not think tion of the administration. Nothing the hon. and learned gentleman had a could have more excited his astonishment, right to put that last question. He except, indeed, the explanation given on a doubted whether it ought to be asked : at former night by the right hon. gentleman. least, he thought it would more properly The animadversions made by the right have been omitted. All he would say was hon. gentleman on the noble lord at the this, that he entirely abided by his ex. head of the late administration, coming planations already given. He would enter from the quarter which they did, had in as deed surprised him. When the struggles surprised that the right hon. gentleman between the right hon. gentleman and did not mean to afford the House any furother members of the cabinet were taking ther explanation. If the question at stake place, and which led, as far as he knew, was a merely personal one, he should not to the breaking up of the late government, be disposed to prolong it: but it was neihe was in the country, and took no part ther just towards individuals, nor decent in them. The first information, indeed, towards the public, that such charges as which he had received of them, and of the the right hon. gentleman had made should dissolution of the government, was through remain without either being answered or the public papers. When he had heard supported. The charge of the right hon. of its dissolution, nothing had given him gentleman was brought, if not against all, greater astonishment; except, indeed, the against a large proportion of his late colspeech in explanation, which the right leagues. Was it against those who had hon. gentleman had made on a former quitted office, or against those who still night. continued in it? As well as he could unSir J. Yorke said, that having read the derstand the last comment of the right explanations of a former night, and listened hon. gentleman, upon the declaration of to those given on the present, the mem- lord Goderich, he seemed to acquit that bers of the late administration did appear noble lord of any share in the design which to him to have been the greatest set of he had alluded to. In that case, did it children that ever matters of importance not appear that the parties conceiving it were intrusted to. If that was the way in must have been those even with whom the which the government of the country right hon. gentleman was now sitting? could be conducted, he fully agreed with If this was not the case, the right hon. the hon, member for Aberdeen, that it gentleman's insinuations must implicate would be an excellent plan to have no somebody--they must stick some where government at all. It would be a great they must apply to those individuals who saving in salaries and emoluments ; and had been in office under the late governthe nation would get on as well by itself ment and had not joined the present; and as with such a cabinet as the House had for them, and on their account, he now heard the history of. Here was a govern- threw back the charge into the teeth of ment broken up, and half the members the right hon. gentleman, who could not, connected with it not acquainted with the he thought, under all the circumstances, fact, until the dissolution was resolved on, avoid either abandoning it or making it and even concluded ; and the king send- good. If the right hon. gentleman ever ing for the noble duke who was to form a expected to receive support, as a minister, new one, and plainly telling him—“You from the House or from the country, he must form a new ministry, for these fellows could not shrink from further explanation, have at last done their own business; but after having gone the length that he had if they could have kept from cutting their done. If he meant to remain a member own throats, I assure you I would have of any government, no matter whether as stood by them." He was very sorry to chancellor of the Exchequer, or degraded hear so lame an explanation from the right to some inferior office, there was no place hon. Master of the Mint. It was very poor, so low that he would be fit to fill it, or to poor indeed-very round-about, and full be tolerated in it by the country, if he of reference to dates and hours, all which could bring accusations of so deep a dye seemed to reasonable people very unim- against the individuals as he had done, portant. He thought that, after what had and refuse either fully to establish or refallen two evenings since from a noble lord tract them. in another place, the right hon. gentleman Mr. Herries said, that after the obserwould have made a better statement to the vations of the hon. baronet, he would offer House. As the account stood, it did ap- a few words to the House; but not at all pear that the right hon. gentleman had in departure from his already expressed been the means of breaking up the last determination--that of entering into no government, by his jealousy and squab- disclosures not absolutely necessary to his bles; and if that was his general character, own exculpation. An hon. and learned the sooner the duke of Wellington turned gentleman, who had termed his explanahim out of the present cabinet the better. tion on a former evening voluntary and Sir J. Macdonald said, he was much I gratuitous, knew well that he had been a a personally called upon for explanation, stances? There was the point at which and that he would have been exclaimed such description might have been given : against for ever if he had withheld it. He Why was it omitted ? It was not he who had had explained, so far as was necessary, to undertaken to account for the dissolution clear his own character from misrepre- of the ministry. Why had not those who sentation ; and he was bound to go no had undertaken that task given an acfurther. In the course of his vindication, count of all the causes which led to it? he had asserted, and he did again assert, If there were other events in operation that it was not correct to say, that his which could render so trifling a circumresignation of office had been the cause of stance as his resignation an immediate the dissolution of the late government. He cause of the breaking up of the ministryhad maintained, that there were other if it were in such a situation before that, causes, and he should always maintain it; as to be operated upon by so slight a cause, for he knew that the fact was so. He why had it not been thought necessary by said that he “ knew”-that was, as far as others to state all the operating causes that a man could know, from inference and | led to that catastrophe? He now begged conclusion ; and from that most palpable to call on the right hon. gentleman, and proof, that a cause so unimportant, unas- to ask him, whether he was not aware that sisted by others, never could have pro- abundant causes existed at the time, which duced such a result. A right hon. gentle- were likely to contribute to such a result? man had said, that he did not give credit For his own part, he would now repeat, to this statement. The right hon. gentle- what he had so often said, and would alman meant, he apprehended, to say that ways continue to say, that his resignation he (Mr. Wynn) was not aware of any other was not the substantive cause of the dissocauses than that suggested. To this he lution of the late government. would answer, that if the right hon. mem- Mr. Wynn begged to repeat in the most ber did not know of any such causes, he distinct and unequivocal terms, his belief (Mr. Herries) did. There was not, he that the resignation of the right hon. gentlethought, a man, in or out of that House, man was the cause of the dissolution of connected with government or not—in the late ministry. He knew of no other short, he believed there was not a man in cause whatever. Whether the government the kingdom, who could come to any other could continue to stand, would have deconclusion than that to which he had him- pended on the share of the confidence of self come, respecting the dissolution of parliament which it might possess ; but government, or at least thus far—that he that it was intended to meet parliament had not been the cause of that dissolution. and to stand the contest on that occasion, He repeated, that no man who was aware he was convinced. Now, he begged to of the events which were passing at that ask the right hon. gentleman whether, time could fail to draw any other conclu- eight and forty hours before he had sent in sion than that which he had done ; though, his resignation, he had not in the cabinet, perhaps, he knew more on the subject than promised to co-operate in the support of others. He would repeat, that no person lord Goderich's government to the utmost who saw the transactions which were then of his power? He asked him whether he going on, could fail to come to any con- had said or intimated any thing on that clusion but this—that there were other occasion, which could give the slightest causes than his tender of his resignation, reason to suppose that he had at that time which operated in effecting the dissolution any intention to resign? He begged to of the government. But he must beg the ask the right hon. gentleman whether at House to bear in mind, that there were that time he had any intention of writing others who had undertaken, and who were the letter tendering his resignation? If he more competent than he was, to give an had, he most certainly had deceived himaccount of the cause of the fall of the late he would not say intentionally, but he had ministry, and who had referred to events deceived him—for he would most distinctly connected with that event. Some of those assert, that it was impossible for any man to whom he alluded, who had referred to who heard the promise of the right hon. his resignation as the immediate cause of gentleman on the 19th of December, to the dissolution, admitted that there were believe that it was his intention to resign other circumstances which also contributed on the 21st. The right hon. gentleman to it. Why not describe those circum- I had stated, thạt no man who had heard : him could be dissatisfied with the explana- question which he put was, not that to tion he had given in defence of his cha- which, as had been observed by his learned racter. Upon that explanation, it was not friend, the right hon. gentleman had his intention to offer any comment. He volunteered a gratuitous answer for, as was not called upon to do it. It was a to consultations with any individuals out matter with which, in his opinion, the of the cabinet, it would not have come into House had nothing to do : it being a point his head to ask. If any such thing occurof honour between the right hon. gentle red, that House was not the place where man and one of his colleagues; but, after they should be noticed, and certainly he the bold manner in which the right hon. was not the person who would introduce gentleman had put the question, he would the subject. The question he had asked beg to ask in turn, whether, after the in- was, how far the right hon. gentleman formation he had received early in De- could concur in a statement made, in the cember, that nothing had been concluded other House, respecting his objections to on the subject of the appointment of lord the appointment of lord Althorp as chairAlthorp, and that the application to that man of the Finance Committee. It had nobleman was merely to sound him as to been stated, by a noble lord (Goderich) whether he had any objection to accept that the right hon. gentleman had, at three the office of chairman, should it be de- different intervals, made different statetermined by the government to nominate ments with respect to the appointment of him-he asked, whether, after that, any lord Althorp. The first was, that he had additional information on the subject had no objection to the appointment: the come to the right hon. gentleman's know- second, that his objection arose chiefly from ledge, before he wrote his letter of the 21st; an implied slight towards him, in not havand if not, on what ground had he assumed, ing been consulted in the nomination; and that negotiations had been going on with the third, on the ground of lord Althorp's respect to that appointment, and that it supposed political or party opinions; and was completed ? If he had received no the noble lord (Goderich) expressed his additional information, how was he war- surprise that, after the explanation that ranted in the assumption, unless he believed the right hon. gentleman had received on that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Tierney) these points, he should have persisted in and the noble lord had combined to de- what he stated, in his letter of the 21st of ceive him? December, and have thus been the means Lord Normandy said, that the question of breaking up the government. To those which he had first introduced to the House questions, and to those only, he had had now arrived at that stage in which it directed the attention of the right hon. could not be taken up beneficially by any gentleman. person except the right hon. gentleman him- Mr. Herries said, that the noble Jord self. The right hon. gentleman had said, had correctly re-stated the points to which that he had given an explanation which he had called his attention. To those must be considered satisfactory. How far points he conceived that he had already it tended to clear his character of course given a reply. He had stated his reasons he meant his public character-he would for the delay which occurred between the not inquire. Neither would he stop to ex- 3rd of December and the letter he wrote amine how far a minister of the Crown was on the 21st. For that, he thought, he had justified in throwing out insinuations also satisfactorily accounted. But the against his late colleagues in office. On noble lord objecied, that he had shifted , all these points he would leave the right his ground, and stated a reason, at a subhon. gentleman to the benefit of that sequent interval, different from that which opinion which he might very easily gather, he had mentioned at first; and the right from all sides of the House, during the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wynn) said the same present short discussion. He had risen thing, and asked, why he had assumed for the purpose of setting the right hon. that the nomination of lord Althorp was gentleman right on one point. Any fur- completed, when he had been already told ther question he would not put, for the that it was only proposed. He would anright hon. gentleman seemed as incapable swer, that he had a right to assume that of understanding any question put to him, the engagement was concluded ; and let it as he was of answering it in a way in which be remembe that when he read the letit could be understood by others. The ter to the House, he stated that he had 80 |