V-22 AIRCRAFT

Now, you mentioned the V-22. The V-22 is all right? Are there any problems with that? I know you call it the CV-22. But any problems with your version of the V-22?

General HOLLAND. Sir, we are watching that very closely. In fact, I will let Mr. Schulte discuss a few things about that as well. Right now we are continuing to be in the test phase. The test phase is event driven. It is not schedule driven, because we have got to make sure, as we bring this airplane on board, that it is safe, reliable and maintainable. And when we look at it from a SOF perspective and I look at the environments that we operate in and the altitudes, that we need to have an airplane that can do that job very safe.

As we continue to fly the program, we have continued to make significant inroads, and I would tell you today I am cautiously optimistic. We still have a ways to go on the MV-22 which bringsthe CV-22, which brings on the terrain-following, terrain-avoidance radar. We still need to do the electronic warfare suite, and we have just now started into that. So about another year from now I will be able to say to even a better finality how I really feel about the program all and all as far as being a Special Operations craft for the future.

Right now we are cautiously optimistic, but I would like to have Mr. Schulte give you an acquisition perspective.

Mr. SCHULTE. Well, General Holland is exactly right. We are in the test program now. As you gentlemen know, we stood down for quite a while after the unfortunate accidents. The MV-22 has been flying for about 11 months now, back from shutting down, and the CV-22 test aircraft at Edwards has been flying since September. So we are getting good test data.

No. 7 is the airplane that is flying right now. No. 9 is in for some mods. It will start flying next month. So we will have two CV-22 airplanes, test birds. The one airplane is basically dedicated to the terrain following, terrain avoidance radar testing, which is very thorough to have that kind of testing done. CV-22 No. 9 will basically do the defensive electronics suite on the airplane, and that is the kind of testing that we will be doing.

One thing you will see us asking for this year is a change in some money. It was decided by the Department that as a risk reduction measure we ought to have a third test airplane for CV-22. There are MV-22s right now that are parked and aren't being used until some of the mods can get done. And so we are going to take one of those MV-22s, mod that into a CV, the third CV-22 test aircraft, as a risk reduction measure in the rest of our test program. The test program is going

Mr. MURTHA. What is the difference in cost between the V-22 and the CV-22 and what is the difference in capability?

Mr. SCHULTE. I think the cost is on the order of $15 to $20 million different. The difference between an MV and a CV is to the equipment that is on the airplane. One of the major differences is the suite of integrated RF or Radio Frequency countermeasures. That is the ECM, electronic countermeasure, system against radar

kinds of threats. That doesn't exist on the MV-22. That is one of the major subsystems on the CV-22.

The other complementary system is an IR (infrared) countermeasure system called the directional infrared countermeasures, or DIRCM. That will also be going on the CV-22. That is not part of the MV-22. There are other things different about it, like additional fuel. We carry fuel in the wings on the CV-22. That is not done on an MV-22. We have additional radio capabilities, more SATCOM radios on there. We have flight engineers, a third crew member in the cockpit on a CV-22, because the workload in a cockpit when you are doing night low-level flying is much higher for our air crews than they might be for the Marines. There is also a seat and a console for that flight engineer. We also have a station in the back of the aircraft for the troop commanders, so guys in the back can have situational awareness on threats. He can communicate when he is en route to the mission. So those are the kinds of changes that you would see in a CV-22.

Mr. MURTHA. Do you lose range and speed when you load them down with this electronic equipment?

Mr. SCHULTE. You lose a little bit-not speed. The speed is still the same. We are meeting all the requirements for speed and range. We are a little bit heavier because of that kind of equipment. We have a requirement for a 500 nautical mile out and back with a hover, and we are meeting that requirement right now with our equipment. Even with the heavier equipment on there we are meeting that.

POST DEPLOYMENT BRIEFINGS

Mr. MURTHA. The Special Operations Forces have come a long ways. I remember when Jack Marsh was Assistant Secretary of the Army. At the same time he was Secretary for Defense and head of Special Operations. Your budget was less than a billion dollars. So you folks have come a long way, and we are real proud of you. But if the Chief would put in the record the one thing I worry about is these guys coming back from this long combat and the type of things that you are doing to keep them from having the type of incidents we had at Fort Bragg. I know you haven't had any instances, and that is surprising to me, because if somebody is in intensive combat like they are, I would be interested in what you are doing differently than what the regular military is doing and the problems that they had at Fort Bragg.

General HOLLAND. Yes, sir. What happened at Fort Bragg, we looked into that very carefully, because that obviously has a large impact when these people think the answer is suicide, when in fact we all know that that is not what people do to solve their problems. What we are doing this time, as you said, Congressman Murtha, we have not had any incidents yet, but the people are starting to come back, and we are putting a lot more stress on post-deployment briefings, more briefings with the spouses, and more involvement with the leadership. Our family support centers, which are throughout our Services, are also more engaged. And so this is one of those things where, when it deals with people, people are our most important asset and definitely in our business they are more

important than hardware. We will continue to put that emphasis on the family situation as they return.

Mr. MURTHA. I compare your folks an awful lot with the ones who were in Vietnam where they had intense combat for a long period of time and of course got no counseling at all when they came back, and we still have people that have problems from that era because they got no kind of help at all, or it was way too late to have any impact. So I appreciate what you are doing to try to alleviate that situation.

Mr. WICKER. Mr. Chairman, rather than jump from subject to subject, I wonder if the ranking member would yield on that Fort Bragg question.

Mr. LEWIS. Well, you can ask him to yield any time you like, and it is his choice whether he yields or not.

Mr. WICKER. Well, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. LEWIS. And we will proceed member by member. Please go ahead.

Mr. WICKER. Well, if you could, General, you said you looked into that very carefully. Could you enlarge on what you found? Were these just isolated incidents? Is there any information you can provide to the subcommittee that might be helpful to us?

General HOLLAND. I would like to say that we had something that was very definitive, but to tell you what it really came down to, in each one of these instances, there was marital discord in all four of these families. So that was the one common aspect of the four suicides, that the marriage had broken down.

Mr. WICKER. Was this type of duty simply coincidental?

General HOLLAND. Yes, sir, because our Special Operations Forces continue to deploy around the world, as they have been doing for years. I always remember when I was at Tory Station and General Shelton, who was in this position, came to see me, and he said, "Hey, we are going to cut back on the number of operations that you people are going to deploy on," and the people in the battalion of the 1st Special Forces Group said, "Sir, that is why we signed up for SOFSEF, because we want to deploy." So our people have had a lot of deployments in their past, and so to extrapolate that the reason-marital discord is really the only one common bond that we saw.

Mr. MURTHA. Let me follow up on what Mr. Wicker said. One fellow committed suicide in jail. That worries me that we incarcerate somebody and then he commits suicide after he commits the crime. Now, I don't know how-I think the other three committed suicide right at the time, but there is a lot of marriage discord every place, and you didn't find any correlation between the combat and coming back to the marriage. I wonder if that is not an excuse by the people who are looking into it rather than really trying to get to the bottom of it.

General HOLLAND. Well, sir, the Army was very much involved as they went forward to Fort Bragg. They were with the different commanders on base, because the 18th Airborne Corps has that responsibility for Fort Bragg. Our United States Army Special Operations Command people were involved, and there is a lot of support structure in place, and why these four-as I mentioned before, the thing we came away from that was the marital discord. Now, that

doesn't say that we can't do a lot of things better, and that is what we are going to do, have more involvement with leadership, more involvement with the post deployment briefings, because that is very important. When a person has been in combat and when they do return, the spouse needs to understand the one that is returning and the one that is home, what that individual has been through. Mr. MURTHA. I appreciate what the Master Chief said, because no Committee unanimously has accepted more responsibility for the morale and welfare of the troops than we have as far as pay, as far as pensions, as far as benefits. This Committee has done everything it can to fund it fully, so we are real concerned when something like this happens, but I appreciate what you are doing and the direction you are going.

Mr. LEWIS. Thank you very much, Mr. Murtha.
Mr. Bonilla.

OSAMA BIN LADEN

Mr. BONILLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, just to concur with what has been said here today already, speaking not just as a member of Congress but as a citizen of this country, we greatly appreciate your service to this country, and we appreciate you bringing Mike with you today. He is somebody that we are going to remember for the rest of our lives for what he has done. So this Committee stands united wanting to help you in any way possible any time that we can do our small part to help you do the job that you are doing around the world. You have made us very proud.

I only have a couple of questions, and they are more out of just curiosity in terms of what your views are and what the likelihood is of us finding bin Laden in the search that has been going on for a while now. Have there been any missed opportunities in your view where some Special Forces operations have encountered an opportunity perhaps that maybe rules of engagement might have prevented him from moving forward, and also on weapons of mass destruction in your view how long will it be before we find something in Iraq? So there are two different things.

General HOLLAND. Yes, sir. On bin Laden, I would rather be in our position than his. Our people will continue as long as it takes to be able to bring that individual to justice.

Mr. BONILLA. So he is isolated then. Obviously he is not-being dead is best case scenario, but the fact that he cannot communicate with his folks is a big deal, is it not?

General HOLLAND. Yes, sir, that is, but he can also employ couriers that would meet with him and then take the word back to the people so that that would protect the location where he currently resides.

WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Each time we go into these facilities, like the facility that you heard probably about at a previous time, we have taken all of these documents. We have taken all the evidence that we can, and we are bringing it back, and that is as I speak continuing to be analyzed. We know that they wanted to develop those capabilities. To say we have a smoking gun, no, we do not have a smoking gun at this point. But I think as we continue to go to all the areas, and

continue to debrief the scientists that were involved, that we will find out exactly what capability he did bring to bear and what capability he might have for the future.

Mr. BONILLA. Is it your view that it is a matter of time, or is it possible that we might not find anything? What is your view?

General HOLLAND. Sir, I think we will find something there.

Mr. BONILLA. Well, in closing, I just want to thank you all for being here, and again, a special thanks for bringing Mike. The story he tells is, again, very important and one that we will certainly carry as a source of pride and joy for what you do for this country.

Thank you.

General HOLLAND. Thank you, sir.

Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, Mr. Bonilla.
Mr. Dicks.

USSOCOM BUDGET INCREASE

Mr. DICKS. I want to apologize for not being here for the testimony. I just got caught up and couldn't be here.

Let me ask you a question. You have done a very good job in getting your budget increase. How did you do it?

General HOLLAND. Sir, as you take a look at people like Mike. When you take a look at the NCOs we have and what they have done and how we have taken SOF forces to exploit the different Services' capabilities, I think people see that, and when they see that they are willing to invest. And that is exactly what happened during this last session with the Department as we went forward for overguidance. So I think people have gained a greater respect for what Special Operations Forces can do, not only when they operate on a particular special operation mission but also when they are operating in support of conventional missions as well.

SOF OPERATIONS IN IRAQ

Mr. DICKS. Good. Well, I was very impressed. Chairman Lewis and I had a chance to go out and see some of the activities prior to the war starting in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and we were told extensively about how these I guess in many areas of Iraq, and the role that is played in the air war, especially being able to use laser designators and other equipment-okay. Tell me about how Special Operations Forces played in this, if you can. If we have to wait till the next session, I can wait.

General HOLLAND. Well, in the next session we can go into some other greater detail, but SOF is always very important on the front end because, number one, they know the terrain, they have cultural awareness, they know how to operate in small numbers. And if you think about how Special Operations Forces need to look towards the future, we look at small teams operating forward, being responsive in a clandestine manner, and that is exactly what these SOF teams did. Think about the people like Mike and his involvement on an A-team. An A-team only consists of 12 people, and when those individuals are able to go into a particular country and develop that relationship, they are also able to develop the capabilities that are brought to bear from that host nation, working with